X-series, open discussion thread

[Davyc]

Hi Jane

 

Performance degradation depends on how your drive is used - how much is written to the drive over X period of time; generally speaking degradation sets in from the moment you use the drive and then the effects are accumulative thereafter. Everyone's loss is different over different periods of time - the only constant is that the performance loss affects everyone.

 

Yes the other companies have issued updates (almost all) and yes there are a few issues with some people, whether that is because of the unique configuration of their machines, or just down to not following the directions as given, is speculative. Corsair would be have us believe that these issues number in the thousands, but I doubt that any sane company would allow such an issue to escalate.

 

Again I agree with you that all everyone wants is to get what they paid for and receive the support that 'should' go with such an expensive piece of equipment.

[Janebaby]

Hi Davyc thanks for the reply.

 

I don't remember anyone telling me or seing it written that my drive would START losing performance from the time I started using it??!!

 

I do remember things written like those recently quoted in Corsair's Press Release :

 

http://www.corsair.com/news/press_release.aspx?id=1042877

 

"The new Extreme Series SSDs are ideal for use as primary drives in desktop and notebooks systems, and also for RAID 0 configurations in high-performance desktops for enthusiasts who want extreme performance."

 

All Extreme Series SSDs feature end-user upgradable firmware to allow for new features to be added, such as the upcoming TRIM command for Windows 7 and other operating systems, which maintains optimal performance over time. Firmware upgrades and support for the Extreme Series SSDs will be available via Corsair's website, and drives can be updated without the need to wipe data from the SSD, ensuring seamless upgrades.

 

That was July 9th, 2009. That is coming around for a year soon.

 

I still don't know where all of this leaves me.

 

Is anyone getting anywhere trying to find out what is happening?

[betaflame]

Wait, so the upgrade utility that is causing problems is the one that keeps the drive data intact?

 

If so, is the one that wipes the drive functioning on the testbeds?

[Davyc]

Wait, so the upgrade utility that is causing problems is the one that keeps the drive data intact?

 

If so, is the one that wipes the drive functioning on the testbeds?

 

Good question, to which the answer will be "we can't comment on that", "we're bound by NDA's", "it's not out policy to comment on the internal workings of the firmware" .... ad-infintum. Any answer that leaves these boundaries will be non-commital or vague.

 

It would be nice to have an update utility that could update the firmware without losing the data, but it would be an 'added bonus' and not a necessity.

[GaMEChld]

Just for Corsair's information, I for one would be fine with an update utility that upgrades the firmware but wipes the drive to factory fresh. I'm sure there are plenty of people who wouldn't care either way. They will either do a fresh install or image a copy of the drive. I'm due for a fresh install anyway, I've done all sorts of nonsense to this current install.

 

Also, here are my current drive specs according to CrystalDiskMark 2.2 just in case anyone was interested.

 

RAID 0 - 2x Corsair X64 SSD's - 64KB Stripes

500MB Test x3

Sequential Read/Write: 188.5 / 44.05 MB/s

512K: 192.5 / 26.91 MB/s

4K: 34.45 / 5.118 MB/s

[GaMEChld]

This thread is really jogging my memory to false claims that were made. On the FAQ you mention, it specifically said that you had to leave the P series at the login screen but there was no need for the X series as GC ran when the SSD was idle. Anyone else remember that?

 

Yes, I do remember that. However, there was then some argument and confusion concerning what "idle" truly meant. At that point, we were advised that if we wanted to be absolutely sure it was idling and running GC, we could Cold Boot the computer and then leave it on the welcome screen, which would force it to be idle and thus Garbage Collecting.

 

So that feature was thoroughly established on the X-Series before it was then redacted.

 

I would feel much less anxious about the situation if one of the Corsair people would clearly state on this thread, "Yes, we previously did state that Garbage Collection was a feature, and have since corrected that. We misrepresented that information."

 

This would make some of us feel less frantic about digging through old pages to find the original claims that were presented on:

http://www.corsair.com/products/ssd_extreme/default.aspx

[Yellowbeard]

Wait, so the upgrade utility that is causing problems is the one that keeps the drive data intact?

 

If so, is the one that wipes the drive functioning on the testbeds?

 

Good question, to which the answer will be "we can't comment on that", "we're bound by NDA's", "it's not out policy to comment on the internal workings of the firmware" .... ad-infintum. Any answer that leaves these boundaries will be non-commital or vague.

 

It would be nice to have an update utility that could update the firmware without losing the data, but it would be an 'added bonus' and not a necessity.

 

There is only 1 version of the update utility. Please don't confuse the issue.

[Yellowbeard]

I have been reading this forum and I am concerned that support for my X 32 SSD is not so good.

Is there a customer service and/or complaints email address I can write to?

 

Also is there actually going to be any updates for my drive and if so when?

 

thanks

 

Asked and answered ::pirate::

 

STICKY

[RAM GUY]

These posts were made a few pages back and some seem to forget or maybe they did not read what was previously posted or just missed these reply's

 

Q: Does firmware release 1.0 include Garbage Collection?

A: No!

Q: What is the difference between firmware release 1.0 and release 1.1?

A: Sorry but that information has not been made public by the Controller manufacturer. We are not allowed to release any information on specific changes to the firmware.

Q: Does firmware release 2.0 include garbage Collection?

A: NO: Firmware version 2.0 for X-Series Drives only has support for Windows 7 Trim.

 

 

I have 2 X128s (in RAID0) that would benefit from the GC feature. (yes I read the previous post, but it's a little vague due to firmware numbering)

 

OK. Does firmware 1.1 include Garbage Collection?

 

Previously Posted by Ram Guy

betaflame and Cadencia,

There is another thread about this and we are trying to clarify some things from the controller manufacturer with G/C and the firmware versions so I would prefer not to answer this until we get that clarification.

Sorry I cannot give you a better answer at this time.

[Janebaby]

Asked and answered ::pirate::

 

STICKY

 

 

I'm sorry but I'm not sure what you mean?

 

Oh sorry that is the 'Sticky' I just posted.

 

So, ok, I thought all the SSD drives were basically the same, so how come most of the other manufacturers have updates that work but we don't?

 

Can we use their software for our drives?

[GaMEChld]

@ Ram Guy post #109

 

I'm not sure if that response was directed at my discussion or not, but I was not referring to the availability of GC on X-Series, I was referring to the fact that when the drive first came to market, it was touted as having a built in performance recovery akin to the Pro series, but was later determined to not have it, and was thus wondering if Corsair was planning on doing something to make up for that misrepresentation.

 

If that post was NOT directed at me, I apologize for my misunderstanding.

[Yellowbeard]

So, ok, I thought all the SSD drives were basically the same, so how come most of the other manufacturers have updates that work but we don't?

If you'll do some reading here and at other forums, you'll see that their updates are rife with issues. We are working to minimize this before we release.

 

Can we use their software for our drives?

 

Please do not discuss this at our forum. We do not endorse this and it will void your warranty.

[RAM GUY]

GaMEChld

What drive are we talking about, and is this our X-Servies or P-Series?

And no it was not directed at any one specific person only that these same questions which have been answered keep getting asked and it was re-posted to try and address these continuing questions!

[Davyc]

In reference to a customer asking if it is possible to use another m/f Indilinx update in a Corsair drive ......

 

Please do not discuss this at our forum. We do not endorse this and it will void your warranty.

 

This is a pretty dire answer - the obvious answer should be NO! The ambiguity around your answer 'could' lead to someone trying it and bricking their drive. If the answer is a potential YES then you would be correct in stating that if they screwed it up then their warranty would be void.

 

As it stands your answer is open to interpretation and this is exactly why people ask the same questions over and over and over and over ... because the answers given are shrowded in ambiguity or leave the person asking the question non-the-wiser.

 

Come on guys - we know you're just as fed up as the rest of us, but at least give the impression that you want to help. I used to love coming to this forum and helping out where I could, but now it is an effort due to the seeming lack of care or concern. Have you given up and are just going through the motions?

[RAM GUY]

Davyc

You and I both know that you can use any tool from any ODM using the same controller, however the device in question may have ID tag's that would prevent you from using a tool provided by XYZ for a drive made by ABC Company. And yes you may indeed end up with a dead/Bricked drive if someone were to try it. In most cases the drive in question would not be detected or the program would not continue with the update.

 

Why must we spell that out for someone; personally I would hope someone would have some common sense about that? However, your point was well taken and this will be considered.

 

All that said ultimately it's your hardware you paid hard money for it and you or any one may do as they please with it. However, flashing an un-approved firmware on any of our SSD's would Violate the warranty policy and subject to Voiding the warranty. Which is posted on the warranty page from our web site.

 

This warranty does not cover problems or damage resulting from, but not limited to, any of the following:

 

Wear and tear associated with normal use

Any modification, abuse, accident, disassembly, misapplication, or unauthorized repair

Removal of any manufacturer label(s) or sticker(s)

Any improper operation, including any use not in accordance with any supplied product instructions

Connection to any improper voltage supply

Use of consumables, such as replacement batteries, not supplied by Corsair, except where such restriction is prohibited by applicable local law

Any other cause which does not relate to a product defect in materials or workmanship

Also excluded from this warranty are counterfeit products; that is, products that Corsair, at its sole discretion, determines were not manufactured by Corsair or any of its authorized manufacturing partners.

 

[Yellowbeard]

Davyc, you have been a great help in quite a few threads and we appreciate it. However, this dissecting of statements is the sort of thing that causes more problems than it solves.

 

WE DO NOT ENDORSE THIS. IT WILL VOID YOUR WARRANTY is clear enough. I cannot presume to tell users that they cannot experiment with their drive they paid for. Nor can I tell them they cannot smash them with hammers, use them as frisbees, etc. However, I am required to prevent open discussion of certain topics here at our forum as noted above. I've flashed modded BIOS' before, put different SPDs on memory, etc etc. However, I knew the risks ahead of time and I knew I was voiding my warranty. As a Corsair employee, I have explained that risk here. Enough said.

 

This entire situation has deteriorated to the point that any answer we give is wrong. When users are regressing to playing simple semantics in a situation like this, the discussion has deteriorated to a point that it is no longer useful. Please stay on topic for the other users here that are new or recent arrivals and that need to support here free from the detritus of this thread.

[GaMEChld]

GaMEChld

What drive are we talking about, and is this our X-Servies or P-Series?

And no it was not directed at any one specific person only that these same questions which have been answered keep getting asked and it was re-posted to try and address these continuing questions!

 

I'm sorry, I thought I was being very clear. :'(

 

If need be, please search the thread for my posts to reread, but the gist of it is:

The X-series drives were originally believed to have Garbage Collection by both early customers, and Corsair's own staff. That mistake has since been corrected. Again, my question is: What, if anything, does Corsair plan to do to make up for this bit of false advertising? Personally, I bought the drive while the Corsair main website listed the built in performance recovery as one of the features.

 

I have basically been asking some form of this question over and over again in this thread, but I am either getting misunderstood or ignored. I guess that's the last time I'll mention it again until I hear some news from customer service, Corsair forum representatives, or other customers who want to discuss it further. Thanks for everyone's thoughts and comments regarding this thus far.

[RAM GUY]

If need be, please search the thread for my posts to reread, but the gist of it is:

The X-series drives were originally believed to have Garbage Collection by both early customers, and Corsair's own staff. That mistake has since been corrected. Again, my question is: What, if anything, does Corsair plan to do to make up for this bit of false advertising? Personally, I bought the drive while the Corsair main website listed the built in performance recovery as one of the features.

 

The Spec for X-Series drives can be found here. With more detailed Information Here.

No where on these two pages is Garbage collection mentioned, and it has never been advertised for that model.

There was no false advertising; so I am not sure what you are talking about.

In addition, there was some mention of that in the SSD F.A.Q. that was amended.

And as I have stated on another thread we are getting more information from the controller manufacturer as to support for specific firmware versions. So I would prefer to not answer further on this question until all of the facts are available.

[GaMEChld]

it has never been advertised for that model.

There was no false advertising; so I am not sure what you are talking about.

 

And there we go, an official stance towards this issue. Corsair now claims it was never advertised as a feature of the X-Series. Personally, I remember mention of some kind of performance recovery/maintenance ability on the product information on Corsair's website. It was not specifically named as garbage collection, but I recall that it mentioned something. Then again, perhaps you are right, and my brain is conjuring delusions.

 

I ask any other customers of the X-Series who bought the drive shortly after release, do any of you have any memory of such a feature listed? I will attempt to scour the interwebs for some form of confirmation.

[Davyc]

@ RAM GUY

 

Thank you for a precise and illuminating answer - it would be folly to 'assume' everyone has the good sense not to mess with their drives unless approved by the m/f and that is why, in your words, it must be spelt out .... I would prefer to call it answering the question in a manner that can not be misinterpreted or leaving a cloud of ambiguity lying over it.

 

@ YELLOWBEARD

 

We don't want you tell us what we can do with our drives - we already know that. What we do want is answers that leave us in no doubt about what we can or cannot 'safely' do when it comes to messing with our drives. Do not 'assume' that everyone that comes here is an expert, sometimes a little handholding and a little less being curt, bordering on rudeness, goes a long way.

 

The one thing I will say is that I will stand up for those who may be intimidated, bullied and scorned by the Corporate Entity - which is why I have sided with the USERS. I defended Corsair's decision not to release the update utility because of the issues you say surround it; tried to play Devil's Advocate and see the middle ground of good sense. However, as many have pointed out it is now coming into 6 months since the release of Windows 7 and the Beta and RC of said OS was out for a full year before official release. So in terms of development time for the update utility we could be forgiven for saying that it has been under development for 1Year and 6months - in terms of technology that is a lifetime with no seeming solution or light at the end of the tunnel being given.

 

Either:

 

1. Get on the backs of the Utility m/f and give them grief, instead of your customers, and give them a deadline for delivery

2. Offer an RMA to X-Series customers to have their drives updated to the latest firmware at NO COST to them - after all, it's not your customers fault that performance degrades due to an oversight in the firmware's capabilities

3. Offer to exchange X-Series drives for a Performance drive

4. Offer a full refund to X-Series customers for distributing a product that degrades the minute it is out of the box and ensure that any products using firmware revision 1 with retailers are recalled to prevent other users from buying a substandard product

 

To be blunt, if you want this problem to go away then sort it; you've had more than long enough and the damage and fallout to Corsair is escalating daily. It's five days since I emailed your Customer Services department and not even and acknowledgement of receipt have I received, let alone a reply - says it all!!!!!

[Knuto]

Ok I see alot of customers here that have been following corsairs products for a long time..

 

question for them.

 

I just got my drives and are still protected by Norwegian law that I can return my drives to my dealer, and get my money back..

 

Should I, or Should I not, return theese drives ?

 

2x SSD Performance P64 2,5" 64GBSATA2, read/write speed of up to 220MB/180MB sec, MLC, Gen 2

 

Is this product having issues like the X series you are discussing here ?

[Davyc]

@ Knuto

 

You are lucky enough to have a firmware update (see the sticky's) if your newly purchased drives do not have the most recent firmware already installed.

 

The perfomance series (with the latest firmware) supports TRIM, though it must be stressed that TRIM does not operate in a RAID configuration, so if you intend to RAID your drives you will not get TRIM support; this is not a drive or firmware limitation with your SSD's, it's to do with the m/f of the RAID controllers.

 

The question you should be asking, if you do intend to RAID your drives, is - is there any form of performance recovery outside of TRIM; if there is, great, if not then I would use RAID with caution or avoid it until the RAID controllers sort out the issue with TRIM (if they ever intend to that is). Good luck.

[Cadencia]

There's nothing wrong with the P series drives.

 

This thread is mainly about the apparent lack of clout that Corsair has with Indilinx, and their inability to provide a method to update the firmware of X series drives, even an unreliable method, and gives us a chance to let off steam without asking the same tired old questions again and again.

 

I think it's sad that the Corsair reps who must spend a good deal of their time working on this forum have not been allowed to answer questions about the capabilities of the X series firmware, and are not getting snappy responses to their requests for information from the controller manufacturer. At least, I assume they aren't getting responses.

 

It's sad because the main competitor seems to be able to answer the same questions about the same controller without much trouble, and don't seem to be hampered by any form of NDA.

 

I really do hope Corsair is not out of its depth with the SSD products.

 

Patiently waiting.

[Davyc]

I really do hope Corsair is not out of its depth with the SSD products.

 

It does make you wonder ;-)

[Janebaby]

If you'll do some reading here and at other forums, you'll see that their updates are rife with issues. We are working to minimize this before we release.

 

Please do not discuss this at our forum. We do not endorse this and it will void your warranty.

 

 

Thanks for the reply Yellowbeard. Yes I had already done some research at the support forums for ******** and ******** which is why I asked about using their software as they are discussing such things on their forums so I assumed it would be ok here too, sorry.

To be honest, there doesn't appear to be any more firmware problems reported on the other forums than there is here on ours with the Performance Series firmware.

I know I am probably just being impatient and critical of something for which I don't know the whole story, but I see an expensive Windows/system re-install ahead which I had not budgeted for.

 

I can't do the secure/erase thing I read about so, do you think my local Corsair supplier will do it for me?

 

I just read a few of the posts before mine and I get the idea that it could take a lot more time to get any help.

So I thought that maybe a thread that is a petition which could be given to Corsair Customer Support and/or Indilinx?

Good idea, yes/no?