Proffo Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 If this is correct and a lower range would remove flickering, adding a 2.1m option into CUE is a no-brainer. If it was put into CUE as an option alongside the 16.8m check-box, I doubt there'd be any backlash. If it did remove the flicker and provided smooth colour transistions, I think the vast majority of Kxx RGB owners would be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goomonster3 Posted April 25, 2015 Author Share Posted April 25, 2015 If a key is assigned a color with no animation, there is no flicker. The flicker only occurs during foreground animation. Will you guys push out an update to fix the flicker? If so, when. Also, will this mean no more 16.8 million colors, more like 2.1mil or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goomonster3 Posted April 25, 2015 Author Share Posted April 25, 2015 If it did remove the flicker and provided smooth colour transistions, I think the vast majority of Kxx RGB owners would be happy. This probably would work (less strain on the cpu) but if the developers thought of a new method of setting the LEDs... I am fairly sure they set all the LEDs (like refresh them) every time the update method is called which could be causing the flickering - well it will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proffo Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 This probably would work (less strain on the cpu) but if the developers thought of a new method of setting the LEDs... I am fairly sure they set all the LEDs (like refresh them) every time the update method is called which could be causing the flickering - well it will be. This post, from around the time the limited colour range was first discovered, seems to suggest that there is no other method of setting the colour of the LEDs. The colour setting has to be done on the fly. Well looking at the datasheet for the chip they used it seems 16.8 million independent colors is actually impossible. The chip only provides 8 possible brightness levels at once. The only way you could get all the colors it seems is to have all the LEDs the same color (or pick 8 static colors and vary their brightnesses). Also, Panasonic advertises the chip as supporting 256 levels of brightness, which while actually true in the case of all LEDs being the same color, is very misleading because it does not mean all the LEDs can have 256 levels of independent brightness. Corsair may have been misled by this. Look for the product page for the AN3x chips and it clearly advertises 256 levels of brightness. Edit: Here is the Panasonic product info I think is misleading: http://www.mouser.com/new/panasonicec/panasonic-AN3x-LED-drivers/ http://www.mouser.com/pdfdocs/Panasonic_AN3x_Brochure.pdf Edit: The maximum interface clock frequency on this chip is 1MHz. As it is a matrix driver, it must continuously scan through all 144 LED configurations fast enough that it is solid to the eye. Say a 60Hz refresh rate is necessary, that means each LED frame is 1 / (144x60) seconds, or 115 us. Because the chip does not store an 8 bit value for each LED, if it were to actually support 8 bit per LED the CPU would have to update the 8-bit PWM register every 115us. This is likely a 2-byte command at least, as you need to specify the address to write. At 1MHz, a single bit time is 1 us, so a 16-bit command would be at absolute lowest 16us, not accounting for framing and chip select delays. This is assuming they are maxing out the interface speed. That is a VERY tight timing margin. Now they have 3 of these chips to update at this rate. Assuming they are all on one SPI bus, that is 48us minimum needed to update in a window of only 115us. It would need to update before sending any PWM at all, which further complicates things as it could mean up to 48us go by with no command at all. On top of this constant data streaming the CPU is still expected to scan the key matrix at 1ms rates and manage USB interfacing. With a max frequency of 50MHz (per above comments) this sounds like an obscene amount of workload that I honestly do not see being possible. The timing is just too extreme. I also believe the update rate is higher than 60Hz, as 60Hz flicker is quite visible on LEDs. I want to set up a photoresistor circuit and hook it to my oscilloscope tomorrow and actually measure the scan frequency. The flickering I'm seeing is not even 60hz. It seems to be a random flicker several times per second. This suggests that the controller is running flat out, and is running out of CPU cycles to execute the code fast enough, or the timing isn't synchronised properly. It's a bit like playing a videogame with graphics settings set too high for the hardware. There will be random dips below 60hz, depending on the load the system is under, that will cause stuttering or screen tear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goomonster3 Posted April 25, 2015 Author Share Posted April 25, 2015 This post, from around the time the limited colour range was first discovered, seems to suggest that there is no other method of setting the colour of the LEDs. The colour setting has to be done on the fly. The flickering I'm seeing is not even 60hz. It seems to be a random flicker several times per second. This suggests that the controller is running flat out, and is running out of CPU cycles to execute the code fast enough, or the timing isn't synchronised properly. It's a bit like playing a videogame with graphics settings set too high for the hardware. There will be random dips below 60hz, depending on the load the system is under, that will cause stuttering or screen tear. Ahh thanks for this. I still stick by this: so the keyboard works amazingly with 512 colors, then it has very small flickering (it still displays a similar color). It flickers with 16.8 million colors, imagine if we half this number, that is 8.4 millions. Our eyes can only see 7 million, meaning its still 1.4 million colors ahead of us, but this would be MUCH MUCH MUCH less of a strain on the CPU I'm guessing. I know you can't get 7 million colors as it goes 8, 16, 32 bit, but as a developer myself, I know you could run a for loop (or whatever method corsair uses to update the LEDs) and set the loop to run every 2 times, instead of every times it loops (in English: set the color every 2nd color instead of every color, meaning it halves the color availability, but also halves the refresh rate of the LEDs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proffo Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Ahh thanks for this. I still stick by this: so the keyboard works amazingly with 512 colors, then it has very small flickering (it still displays a similar color). It flickers with 16.8 million colors, imagine if we half this number, that is 8.4 millions. Our eyes can only see 7 million, meaning its still 1.4 million colors ahead of us, but this would be MUCH MUCH MUCH less of a strain on the CPU I'm guessing. I know you can't get 7 million colors as it goes 8, 16, 32 bit, but as a developer myself, I know you could run a for loop (or whatever method corsair uses to update the LEDs) and set the loop to run every 2 times, instead of every times it loops (in English: set the color every 2nd color instead of every color, meaning it halves the color availability, but also halves the refresh rate of the LEDs. I don't think halving the number of colours would save much, if any load on the CPU. I'd need to see the details on how the registers in the LED drivers are programmed (and brush up on my coding !). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goomonster3 Posted April 25, 2015 Author Share Posted April 25, 2015 I don't think halving the number of colours would save much, if any load on the CPU. I'd need to see the details on how the registers in the LED drivers are programmed (and brush up on my coding !). I think it would; think about it, with 16.8 million colors the colors have to be updated MUCH faster than 512 (this is why 512 doesn't flicker), so as I said before, the flicker happens a bit with 16.8; with half of this I think it would flicker a very very small amount or maybe even stop the flickering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inheritance Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Honestly I find this absolutely ridiculous... They claim the keyboard can show 16.8 million colors, and it can only display 512. They make us wait 8 weeks after the statement from the CEO (which is long after the initial release of the keyboard) then finally they release the update claiming 16.8 million colors but it turns out it doesn't have the capability to run it.. Absolutely rediculous and I am sure many people will agree with me here... Well it seems the engineers screwed up big when picking out parts for these keyboards. The competition has had the full color spectrum and fluid animation from the start, yet Corsair still hasn't been able to achieve that :/ Oh well.. At least my light blue doesn't look cyan.. If you think the product isnt what you paid for you may contact Corsair at KBinquiries@corsair.com for a full refund. I wonder if reducing the number of colors from 16.8 million to say 8.4 would reduce the flicker? I seriously doubt if anyone could tell the difference. Or even 4.2 million colors. Heck anything past a few thousand is probably overkill. The difference from a practical standpoint is really just a marketing thing. I know I would be willing to take the hit if it made the flicker imperceptible. That's a good question. I imagine most users would be willing to halve the number of colours to remove or reduce the flickering. If reducing colours would help, perhaps Corsair could add 8.4m and 4.2m tick boxes underneath the 16.8m option in CUE? ITs not possible to just cut the colors in half like that. The idea of less colors has been explored but found to be not viable. I might be wrong, but my understanding is that to implement 16.8m colours, the firmware had to be changed to allow the entire colour palette to be updated when any LED changes colour. I'm not sure of the specific detail, but even if you reduce the colour range from 24 bits to 16 bits (65,536 colours), the load on the CPU might not reduce enough to eliminate the flicker. Its the load on the controller chip not the CUP, but i'm sure a tech savvy guy that builds a ton of computers would know that. :roll: Will you guys push out an update to fix the flicker? If so, when. Also, will this mean no more 16.8 million colors, more like 2.1mil or something? There are no plans for any more work on the 16.8 mill color issue from the software side. The internal hardware will have to be redone for v2 to have 16.8 mill colors without flickering. You can contact Corsair at KBinquiries@corsair.com for a refund if you do not like the keyboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goomonster3 Posted April 25, 2015 Author Share Posted April 25, 2015 There are no plans for any more work on the 16.8 mill color issue from the software side. The internal hardware will have to be redone for v2 to have 16.8 mill colors without flickering. You can contact Corsair at KBinquiries@corsair.com for a refund if you do not like the keyboard. Wait so we have to buy a whole new keyboard to get what we thought we were getting originally? Also, where are you getting this information from? It doesn't say you work for corsair :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inheritance Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Wait so we have to buy a whole new keyboard to get what we thought we were getting originally? Also, where are you getting this information from? It doesn't say you work for corsair :P Thats why they are offering a return option, so you can return it and buy v2 if you want to. So you wont be buy a whole new keyboard since you wont have a old keyboard. I do not work for Corsair but i am in contact with James. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarredMecha Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 This post, from around the time the limited colour range was first discovered, seems to suggest that there is no other method of setting the colour of the LEDs. The colour setting has to be done on the fly. The flickering I'm seeing is not even 60hz. It seems to be a random flicker several times per second. This suggests that the controller is running flat out, and is running out of CPU cycles to execute the code fast enough, or the timing isn't synchronised properly. It's a bit like playing a videogame with graphics settings set too high for the hardware. There will be random dips below 60hz, depending on the load the system is under, that will cause stuttering or screen tear. From my understanding, the flickering was a result of the implementation of the 16.8m color mode: They turn all the LEDs off when changing colors in order to ensure the correct LEDs are having their colors changed. They could make the whole process faster to reduce/eliminate the flickering, but it would/could compromise the responsiveness of the keyboard. Personally, I'd be all for a less responsive keyboard mode just to have pretty lights. Kind of like a mode to show off with. If I'm going to game or something, I could just turn off the mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inheritance Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 From my understanding, the flickering was a result of the implementation of the 16.8m color mode: They turn all the LEDs off when changing colors in order to ensure the correct LEDs are having their colors changed. They could make the whole process faster to reduce/eliminate the flickering, but it would/could compromise the responsiveness of the keyboard. Personally, I'd be all for a less responsive keyboard mode just to have pretty lights. Kind of like a mode to show off with. If I'm going to game or something, I could just turn off the mode. Yes but the keyboard would still be refreshing at an ungodly rate even with the mode off. You could always turn the 16.8 mill color mode off every time i guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proffo Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Its the load on the controller chip not the CUP, but i'm sure a tech savvy guy that builds a ton of computers would know that. :roll: CPU (not CUP) is the controller chip. Same thing, unless you want to be really pedantic. Currently finishing a PC build, waiting for Windows updates to download/install. Please keep me entertained while I'm waiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimpleStreet Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 If you think the product isnt what you paid for you may contact Corsair at KBinquiries@corsair.com for a full refund. So we are still able to get a refund ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terabyte Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 Yeah, I believe they are still offering the full refund. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimpleStreet Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 Yeah, I believe they are still offering the full refund. Cool thanks, just send an email. Cant believe they made people wait so long for 16m colors and it does not even work properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mysticc Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 So you can choose now, - 16,8 m colors in effects with flickering or 512 without flickering. Only took over half a year to achieve this. Am I impressed? Definitely not. In other words - Corsair totally screwed this. @zheren159 Please spare your comment...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsair Employee Corsair James Posted April 27, 2015 Corsair Employee Share Posted April 27, 2015 There isn't a way to pick "X" colors that is > 512 and < 16.8m as the limitation isn't due to any type of issue that can be corrected through software. The hardware in the keyboard isn't designed to work in such a modular fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimpleStreet Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 There isn't a way to pick "X" colors that is > 512 and < 16.8m as the limitation isn't due to any type of issue that can be corrected through software. The hardware in the keyboard isn't designed to work in such a modular fashion. Why did you guys keep misleading people then ? When you had the beta testers working on this, why not come out and say this is the problem, if anyone is not happy with how the outcome will turn out then ask for a refund, instead you guys made sure to wait until the end and not even tell people about the flickering until people made such a huge thing about it in the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inheritance Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 So you can choose now, - 16,8 m colors in effects with flickering or 512 without flickering. Only took over half a year to achieve this. Am I impressed? Definitely not. In other words - Corsair totally screwed this. @zheren159 Please spare your comment...... If you think the product isnt what you paid for you may contact Corsair at KBinquiries@corsair.com for a full refund. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mysticc Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Thanks zheren159, one more comment explicitely not asked for - are you Corsair`s spokesman? I owned 2 Ks - both hat dead LEDs, so it was clear not to jump on the RGB-train from the start. Wise decision. Dead LEDs seem to be no issue anymore - great, but now there are other. I posted months ago at the end of 2014 I highly doubt Corsair will be able to fix it at all - seems I was quite right. All colors or flicker. And please this time - spare me your comment - there is nothing you can deliver of worth for me. You are far to biased and I have the impression you feel like an evangelist. Nevertheless this is okay. Have fun with your RGB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inheritance Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Thanks zheren159, one more comment explicitely not asked for - are you Corsair`s spokesman? I owned 2 Ks - both hat dead LEDs, so it was clear not to jump on the RGB-train from the start. Wise decision. Dead LEDs seem to be no issue anymore - great, but now there are other. I posted months ago at the end of 2014 I highly doubt Corsair will be able to fix it at all - seems I was quite right. All colors or flicker. And please this time - spare me your comment - there is nothing you can deliver of worth for me. You are far to biased and I have the impression you feel like an evangelist. Nevertheless this is okay. Have fun with your RGB. No i am not and seeing as you dont have a keyboard then whether you're impressed or not doesnt really matter then does it. Im an atheist so i cant possible by an evangelist, but good try. As for being bias oh I bitch at Corsair for more **** then you can think of. Heres a list. 1. WTF is with Corsair Support needing a different login. Yes the forum was not Corsairs to begin with they bought it and they run on two different platforms but WTF still. 2. The fact that a K95 profile cant work on a K70 or K65 without having to edit the xml is stupid as hell. 3. CUE has a messy UI 4. CUE is way to complex for a beginner to use. 5. The fact that they just now added the ability to export clean profiles and modes shows that they didnt really didnt think ahead. The stupid issue of 16.8 mill colors just isn't one of them because me bitching at them for that isnt going to ****ing fix it. OH and BTW heres the real kicker neither the Chroma or G910 has 16.8 mill colors either! And your disappointed? Who isnt.... IM disappointed too. If you dont like it go buy a Chroma or G910 and go on Logitechs forum or Razer and see cry lets see what they do. spare me your comments please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proffo Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 The stupid issue of 16.8 mill colors just isn't one of them because me bitching at them for that isnt going to ****ing fix it. Stupid issue ? It was stupid for them to claim fast and fluid 16.8 million colour animation before they actually failed to achieve it. I think you implied a bit of bad language, no need really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inheritance Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Stupid issue ? It was stupid for them to claim fast and fluid 16.8 million color animation before they actually failed to achieve it. I think you implied a bit of bad language, no need really. TEll me the company that didnt claim 16.8 mill colors before. They all changed or reworded the 16.8 mill colors part. Its not called being stupid its marketing. You market then you deal with everything else after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proffo Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 You market then you deal with everything else after. You do if you want to risk creating bad publicity for yourself. Design, build and test the product (or service) first, then market it. That seems to be the sensible way of doing things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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