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  #16  
Old 05-24-2017, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by unilythe View Post
Honestly, at the moment, the bigger problem is the software, not the hardware. Commander Pro's firmware may be all in your hands, but Corsair Link still is being made by a third party, if I'm not mistaken. Corsair's hardware is never the problem. The software always is.
The software used to be third party; with Link 3 it moved in house and then was redesigned from the ground up in Link 4.
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  #17  
Old 05-24-2017, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Corsair Dustin View Post
This is factually inaccurate and missing information. I'm happy to explain how reviews work, though; I was press prior to working at Corsair (look up "Dustin Sklavos AnandTech") and was actually brought on because my reviews were extremely critical.

You're absolutely right to be concerned about the uneasy peace between hardware vendors and reviewers. And there are companies that will cut off review hardware to someone that gives them a bad review. And there are reviewers who will basically sell good reviews.

Corsair won't cut off an outlet for a bad review, and I know this to be true because I've done it. At absolute worst, ad dollars influence how fast a review will get done, but have no impact on its quality.

As for the generations of hardware and software, I will readily admit there are issues. But if you've been paying attention, newer generations typically resolve the problems that might have plagued prior ones.

Take, for example, Commander & Cooling Node -> Commander Mini -> Commander Pro. For the Commander, Cooling Node, and Commander Mini, we've been more or less at the mercy of a third party for firmware updates because we were using their IP. With Commander Pro, that's no longer the case; Commander Pro's hardware and firmware are now developed internally precisely to avoid the problems we'd had with third party hardware and firmware.

It may seem externally that we're not paying attention, but we're actually paying extremely close attention.

You're an end user, and the products you bought didn't live up to your expectations. And that's totally fine. Our problems shouldn't be your problems, and if I were still on the press side of this I would be pushing back on Corsair if I were having your experiences.

The best I can tell you is that the problems that we can fix, we try, and the problems we can't, we make a note of and go about trying to solve in the next generation of products.



This is a more complex situation than you realize. I've tried at length to work with Ray in the past when I was in Technical Marketing and managing these forums, and I've tried to support him, but there are limits - often legal ones - to what we can share with him and what we can do.
First I want to say THANK YOU for posting this detailed and informative response. It's good to see Corsair people responding to these posts, and with actual info - not just "Don't know - passed it on". Those posts never seem to be followed with later info. They just die out.

It seems obvious that Corsair was put in a no-win situation with 3rd party software and firmware. The whole AseTek verses CoolIT AIO pumps is a prime example, and the Commander Mini, which has had unresolved firmware bugs since it came out. It is great news (I Hope) that Corsair has decided to take control of these products and develop the software/firmware for the Commander Pro in house. Hopefully you have some good programmers who will do it right this time.

As for reviews, I have read maybe 6 of them today on the Commander Pro - some better than others but none really dug into it. They just hooked the stuff up, ran Link for a little bit and set up some basic stuff. A few of them mentioned Link's buggy history but only in passing. None of them really tore into the device like I know Ray would. These same reviewers had nothing bad to say about earlier Corsair products that we all know have problems, so I do not feel like I can make any judgement based on any of this.

Now that you are not stuck with a 3rd party's buggy code, maybe Corsair would not be so legally constrained to engage Ray in some fashion. If the product is ALL Corsair, I would think you can send eval units to anyone you want. You know Ray is going to get his hands on one sooner or later. If I were Corsair, I would want his review data before I started selling the things only to find out - Oh No - There are problems. Then the whole vicious cycle starts again with frustrated customers who are the real victims suffering with shiny new stuff that does not work properly. Why not take advantage of Ray's willingness to help?


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  #18  
Old 05-24-2017, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Corsair Dustin View Post
I'm sorry if you're unhappy with our products and software. It may not seem like it, but there is substantial effort put into these products and software; I spend a minimum of two hours in meetings once a week just going over and prioritizing bugs, and was responsible for architecting a large Corsair Link "bible" to guide future development and ensure a more cohesive and overall better user experience.

But that being said, we can only do so much. If you don't feel like our stuff meets your needs and you're not satisfied - which is totally within your rights - you may be better served by a competitor's product. We'd rather have happy friends than angry customers.
Thank you again for your response. Our posts are actually overlapping. It is so unusual to actually get a response from Corsair - to be honest I am not used to it, though I am pleasantly surprised so again - Thank you.

You are right - I do not have to buy Corsair products and to be honest, I won't until these issues are resolved. I only got pulled into the saga going on in this forum because Link kept having problems, so like many I came to this forum to find out what I was doing wrong. I found out it was not me - it was Link. Then I started reading various threads, and the rest is history. If I had not already purchased Corsair products, I would have no dog in this fight,

That said, it's good to hear that bugs are taken seriously though it begs the question why simple things like remembering window -ve Y positions and getting the SMB Bus interlocking straight when Ray tells you the problem and the solution are not implemented release after release. From what I have read about the latest release, it is sadly a regression in many areas. If you read these threads in detail as you claim, then I don't need to repeat Ray's latest list of problems which appear in the 2nd post in the latest Link 4.7.0.77 release thread. Some bugs can be hard to deal with but others that should be a quick fix go unresolved, or worse, get worse.

We can go around and around but at the end of the day you are right - I do not have to buy anything from Corsair. The Commander Pro is a clever device and I would love to put one in my system. It's a personal decision and mine is that I will not purchase one until Ray has had a chance to put the thing through it's paces. I suspect I am not alone in this position. Will it make a difference to Corsair if I buy a Commander Pro - no. I am just one person. But I have to think that the history of things has caused Corsair to lose business and reputation. I have seen many posts from people exclaiming they are done with Corsair and will never buy another product and will spend their days recommending this to others. And it is rarely a hardware problem that makes them feel this way - it's always the software and firmware. That just can't be good for business.

Corsair should be glad SIV exists as without it many people would not continue to purchase your products. So why not give him a chance to evaluate one? You will get a better review than any I have read today (or ever) and quite probably save everyone the hassle of finding the problems the hard way. What would it cost - the price of an eval kit that you send to to many others? It's nothing in the scheme of things.


  #19  
Old 05-24-2017, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Corsair Dustin View Post
The software used to be third party; with Link 3 it moved in house and then was redesigned from the ground up in Link 4.
Hmm - And this same team developed the firmware for the Commander Pro? I am sorry to say that is not increasing my confidence in the product at all...


  #20  
Old 05-24-2017, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by SpeedyV View Post
Hmm - And this same team developed the firmware for the Commander Pro? I am sorry to say that is not increasing my confidence in the product at all...
That's certainly your call. I'm personally extremely confident in our software/firmware team, which is the same software/firmware team that handles CUE and our HID products (though I manage neither of those). Just upgraded my desktop to a Commander Pro; Zero RPM fan mode and hardware playback of fan control is nice, desktop doesn't sound like a jet engine on startup anymore. ;)

I have sent a private message to Ray and am certainly willing to make hardware available to him, but bringing him into our development cycle for individual products is a bridge too far. I can make beta versions of Link software available, but actual hardware is out of the question.

Beyond that, though, he needs to be willing to work with us amicably and respectfully on these forums as well as accept decisions not within his control. I'm responsible for prioritizing bugs and features in Corsair Link software now; just like I have to accept when executives either want features I disagree with or excise features/products I'm passionate about, he would need to accept and respect my saying "no" to suggestions. His conduct in the forums doesn't make me optimistic, but I'm open to the possibility.
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  #21  
Old 05-24-2017, 06:49 PM
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Also, please remember that what a "quick fix" is to red-ray is not a "quick fix" for us. Every time we change the software, it has to go through regression testing. It may not seem like it to you, but our software is very heavily vetted and tested internally, and while he can just patch SIV and call it a day, we have to spend time to make sure patches don't break anything.

We are also still reliant on the CPUID SDK and support it as much as possible, but the avalanche of new platforms has resulted in some instability on that front as well that has made maintaining Corsair Link more complicated. We are instituting more checks on our side for stability testing and validation.
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  #22  
Old 05-24-2017, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Corsair Dustin View Post
That's certainly your call. I'm personally extremely confident in our software/firmware team, which is the same software/firmware team that handles CUE and our HID products (though I manage neither of those). Just upgraded my desktop to a Commander Pro; Zero RPM fan mode and hardware playback of fan control is nice, desktop doesn't sound like a jet engine on startup anymore. ;)

I have sent a private message to Ray and am certainly willing to make hardware available to him, but bringing him into our development cycle for individual products is a bridge too far. I can make beta versions of Link software available, but actual hardware is out of the question.

Beyond that, though, he needs to be willing to work with us amicably and respectfully on these forums as well as accept decisions not within his control. I'm responsible for prioritizing bugs and features in Corsair Link software now; just like I have to accept when executives either want features I disagree with or excise features/products I'm passionate about, he would need to accept and respect my saying "no" to suggestions. His conduct in the forums doesn't make me optimistic, but I'm open to the possibility.
Fair enough. That is between Red Ray and Corsair so I have no comment on this but thank you for providing this response.

Last edited by SpeedyV; 05-24-2017 at 08:59 PM.


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  #23  
Old 05-24-2017, 06:56 PM
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So you're aware, we didn't delete the post, red-ray did.
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  #24  
Old 05-25-2017, 03:34 AM
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maybe corsair should offer some type of trade in for the mini to the pro, i just bought mine 2 months ago directly from corsair (along with 8 ML series fans, 4 LED strips, and a 750D case with a h100i and 3 ssd's, so yeah i have a few corsair products ) and there are some quirks to it, link works mostly ok except for a weird startup issue were i have to exit out of it then restart it to see everything they way i set it up.


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  #25  
Old 05-25-2017, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Corsair Dustin View Post
The software used to be third party; with Link 3 it moved in house and then was redesigned from the ground up in Link 4.
Ah, I was not aware of that.

Being a software developer myself, I understand there will always be bugs. No software of this scale will be bug-free. But having the same (sometimes critical) bugs or issues not be fixed over a year later is just not okay. That's what most people are complaining about.
For example, I'm a little baffled at how "Corsair Link 4 Service" can still take up 3% of my 7700k CPU. 3% is really unacceptable for a background process like this. It really seems to us that Corsair executives prioritize new features over fixing bugs and issues like these.

I really appreciate your many responses here though! I learned a few new things from your posts. It's also nice to just know we're being heard. Simply telling us "we're listening" while not showing any signs of that never does it for me. An actual conversation like this is so much better. So thank you for that!

Last edited by unilythe; 05-25-2017 at 04:53 AM.


  #26  
Old 05-25-2017, 04:52 AM
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Thumbs up SIV had a inbuilt "auto test" facility

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corsair Dustin View Post
Also, please remember that what a "quick fix" is to red-ray is not a "quick fix" for us. Every time we change the software, it has to go through regression testing. It may not seem like it to you, but our software is very heavily vetted and tested internally, and while he can just patch SIV and call it a day, we have to spend time to make sure patches don't break anything.

We are also still reliant on the CPUID SDK and support it as much as possible, but the avalanche of new platforms has resulted in some instability on that front as well that has made maintaining Corsair Link more complicated. We are instituting more checks on our side for stability testing and validation.
I feel I need to assure members who use SIV that SIV releases are well tested and validated.

Quote:
  1. For SIV 4.00 released on 14-Jul-2009 was the SIV equivalent of CL4. This was when SIV became a 64-bit application and could correctly report 256 CPUs (now I suspect 1280 CPUs). The first few releases were suboptimal, once things stabilised I changed SIV 4.04 on 14-Dec-2009 to be Unicode. Since then there have been no major changes (Adding CL hardware support was not a major change ) and SIV has gradually grown.
  2. Obviously I don't have all the resources that Corsair have and since joining the forum on 23-May-2014 many members have helped me improve SIV. This is epically the situation for adding support for motherboards that I do not have.
  3. I would formally like to thank Corsair for allowing this and I suspect I should do this more often.
  4. I am pleased to see that Dustin now seems to be involved the Corsair Link section of the forum after being absent since Jan-2016. I doubt we will ever see "eye to eye" on some things, but in the past we did successfully work together and I would like to thank him for his support for me over the years, epically so for when I did inappropriate things . When such things happen it's pretty obvious who the "good guys" are .
  5. My thought for the day is that I should try to be more patient . Half the reason SIV get's fixed rather quickly is that I am not .
  6. Yes, for me it's much easier to make some fixes and quickly release a new Beta. Some are trickier with one example being http://forum.corsair.com/forums/showthread.php?p=901440.
  7. As I can run SIV in test mode which reports from SIV save files it's also quite easy for me to test many changes before I release a new SIV Beta.
  8. As I know how all of SIV works there are rarely any regressions in a release and most of the time the Beta releases do not regress.
  9. Whenever I need to make a change that I suspect could cause issues I do this just after a release to ensure this get's well tested in the betas.
  10. SIV had a inbuilt "auto test" facility and doing a [Save Local] is also a very good test.
  11. I can confirm that some of the CL4 issues are caused by the CPUID SDK with one example being http://forum.corsair.com/forums/showthread.php?p=903472 and there are others I could link to.
  12. As CL4 uses the CPUID SDK it's better to cross check with one of AIDA64, HWiNFO or SIV as HWMonitor is likely to have the same code as CL4.
  13. If CL4 + HWM have the same issue it usually faster to get HWM fixed than CL4 and by doing this a future CL4 should be fixed.
  14. This is often if not always what I do, but I can also get test versions of the Corsair CPUID SDK (cpuidsdk.dll) and as I sometimes work with Franck to address issues I sometimes have an improved CL4 before Corsair do .
  15. If Corsair could release Beta Corsair CPUID SDKs some issues could be addressed more quickly, but I am unsure if their validation systems would allow this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corsair Dustin View Post
So you're aware, we didn't delete the post, red-ray did.
Quote:
I feel I should confirm I did this and suspect most will deduce why .
Attached Images
File Type: png [Tests Run].png (32.2 KB, 328 views)

Last edited by red-ray; 05-28-2017 at 03:01 AM. Reason: Typo + test cpuidsdk.dll


  #27  
Old 05-25-2017, 05:48 AM
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Idea More history/details

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Originally Posted by unilythe View Post
Sometimes even when completely unnecessary.
Please will you post a link to add some clarity?

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Originally Posted by unilythe View Post
Ah, I was not aware of that.
You may find http://forum.corsair.com/forums/showthread.php?p=793290 interesting

Last edited by red-ray; 05-25-2017 at 05:51 AM.


  #28  
Old 05-25-2017, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by red-ray View Post
Please will you post a link to add some clarity?
Sure. You apparently deleted the post about an hour ago, as I saw the post this very morning, but the post was quoted by Wired so it doesn't really matter. Here it is:

http://forum.corsair.com/forums/showpost.php?p=905453

A bit suspicious that you'd first delete the post and then ask me for a link, by the way. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you deleted it for other reasons.


  #29  
Old 05-25-2017, 07:50 AM
red-ray red-ray is offline
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Woah! SIV will never have a "pretty UI"

Quote:
Originally Posted by unilythe View Post
Sure. You apparently deleted the post about an hour ago, as I saw the post this very morning, but the post was quoted by Wired so it doesn't really matter. Here it is:

http://forum.corsair.com/forums/showpost.php?p=905453

A bit suspicious that you'd first delete the post and then ask me for a link, by the way. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you deleted it for other reasons.
  1. As you did not link to it I had no way to know that is the post you were were thinking of and given Wired quoted it I would have had to be pretty dumb if that was my intent .
  2. I would have thought it's pretty obvious why I deleted it and if not I suspect it soon will be.
  3. I recall several posts from other members who wished they had checked the forum before they bought and wished to encourage this.
  4. I felt I should to make it clear that should there be issues with CL4 that SIV could not help.
  5. I did not mention SIV my name to minimise the promotion.
  6. When reading the Scan posting guidelines they recommended anonymity so I wrote in as though I was a 3rd party.
  7. In general I try I promote SIV to diagnose issues as most likely to use SIV to control will figure out for themselves that they could do this, though I will promote SIV for systems with > 32 CPUs as CL4 can only handle up to 32.
  8. I am sure there are other examples of promoting SIV as it could resolve an issue the user had, the one that comes to mind is disk spin-down. I know I have posted what the SIV solution is, but can't remember if I also said it could control CL hardware. I would not be surprised if I had.
  9. I know I should try and minimise the promotion as a CL4 replacement and back in around Sep-2015 Dustin changed the title of http://forum.corsair.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140665 to reflect this.
  10. Now that we finally have some feedback from Corsair I am far happier.
  11. I now have a good answer for those who dislike the SIV UI .
  12. SIV will never have a "pretty UI" as this would promote SIV as a CL4 replacement and do not wish to promote SIV as a CL4 replacement .

Last edited by red-ray; 05-25-2017 at 12:27 PM. Reason: remove ambiguity


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  #30  
Old 05-26-2017, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by red-ray View Post
  1. SIV will never have a "pretty UI" as this would promote SIV as a CL4 replacement and do not wish to promote SIV as a CL4 replacement .
Doesn't make sense to me. How would it hurt Corsair to have a better software for their hardware for free?

The opposite is true. People would be much more willing to buy Corsair Link products if the software was better.


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