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  #1  
Old 10-16-2019, 07:02 AM
rx7dude rx7dude is offline
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Unhappy H115i losing performance?

Hello,

I recently upgraded my system to a Z390 Aorus Ultra motherboard and 9700K from a 7600K. It is being cooled by my nearly 3 year old H115i with ML140 pro fans.

I have noticed that while idling my 9700K hovers around the 29 - 35C range and while gaming never exceeds 65C when set to High Performance in windows. This is with the processor at stock settings and MultiCore Enhancment Disabled in BIOS. However, one run in Cinebench R15 produces worrying results as my processor shoots up to 85 - 90C. This is with Pump and fans set to extreme in iCue. Setting the fans to 100% drops the temps down to 75-77C but still seems rather high for a stock 9700K. The reported Voltage by CpuZ and HWInfo64 is a max of 1.248V which is relatively low.

Is this a sign that my H115i is losing performance or am I just unlucky and got a bad chip (I hope not).

Also I am using Kryonaut paste in a spread method (have reapplied twice using dot and spread both with same results) and my ambient room temperature is 23C. Cooler is mounted very firmly. The processor even with MCE disables still likes to ramp up to 4.7 - 4.8ghz across all cores, and given the 1.248 max volts it pulls, seems reasonable.

I have a feeling it is the H115i as gaming temps are super reasonable at 55-65C depending on ambient. Its only under 100% load it shoots up and that makes me wonder if the pump is not actually at 3200RPM. At this setting the pump also has no audible sound whatsoever.

Further note: Liquid temperatures idle at 28 to 30C and under gaming never exceed 37C.

Last edited by rx7dude; 10-16-2019 at 07:14 AM.
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  #2  
Old 10-16-2019, 07:12 AM
Nazgul Nazgul is offline
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That's just normal for an 8 core i7 or i9 CPU 9th Gen. Mine used to do the same thing but the AIO is not such a great cooling performance option but more like a step above the HSF and looks.
Mine wasn't that good and it was outperformed by a be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4 and way, way, way much quiet than those 140mm Corsair fans at full speed.

Now I have a Hydro X loop and it's much better, but at 4x the cost. Not everyone is willing to spend more than $400 for a water loop.

Just remember, these CPUs are not Quad-Cores with HT but double the core count so it's normal that the CPU will heat up pretty quick.
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  #3  
Old 10-16-2019, 07:13 AM
c-attack c-attack is offline
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You need to look at the coolant temperature change to assess cooler efficiency. Lots of reasons for the CPU to be one temp or another, but with the cooler it's about ambient air temp vs coolant temp change.

Most people will see coolant temps of +4-6C above the room temp at idle. This varies with processor, power settings, and of course case, layout, and relative room position. At load on a 9700K, you should see about +6-7C for CPU test over the first 15-20 minutes. After that, any deviance is usually down to changes in case temp.
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  #4  
Old 10-16-2019, 07:20 AM
rx7dude rx7dude is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c-attack View Post
You need to look at the coolant temperature change to assess cooler efficiency. Lots of reasons for the CPU to be one temp or another, but with the cooler it's about ambient air temp vs coolant temp change.

Most people will see coolant temps of +4-6C above the room temp at idle. This varies with processor, power settings, and of course case, layout, and relative room position. At load on a 9700K, you should see about +6-7C for CPU test over the first 15-20 minutes. After that, any deviance is usually down to changes in case temp.
Coolant temperature is fine. Around ranging from 28 to 37C depending on task at hand. This seems correct given my ambient is around 23 to 24. I am not sure what is wrong here.
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  #5  
Old 10-16-2019, 07:22 AM
rx7dude rx7dude is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazgul View Post
That's just normal for an 8 core i7 or i9 CPU 9th Gen. Mine used to do the same thing but the AIO is not such a great cooling performance option but more like a step above the HSF and looks.
Mine wasn't that good and it was outperformed by a be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4 and way, way, way much quiet than those 140mm Corsair fans at full speed.

Now I have a Hydro X loop and it's much better, but at 4x the cost. Not everyone is willing to spend more than $400 for a water loop.

Just remember, these CPUs are not Quad-Cores with HT but double the core count so it's normal that the CPU will heat up pretty quick.
I am highly considering upgrading to a Noctua NH-D15 Chromax Black the newly released ones. Would this give me better temperatures? I am kind of getting annoyed with AIO cooling as the results seem to be in favor of Air coolers both performance and noise wise.
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  #6  
Old 10-16-2019, 07:31 AM
c-attack c-attack is offline
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Even with MCE disabled, there is a lot more to do to get most recent motherboard BIOS versions ready to run stress tests. The manufacturers goal is to get even the worst CPU in history to load up, not get the leanest temps possible for someone running a synthetic bench. When in doubt, pile on voltage.

CPU temps are voltage based and change instantly when this is the cause. A cooler, regardless of type, does not stop conducting heat no matter what you do with the fans or pump. If you don't get the heat out of the cooler, it eventually becomes an add-on penalty to the CPU. Coolant temperature is the minimum possible CPU temp, so when the coolant goes +6C, you have raised the baseline by 6 and with no other changes, the CPU temps are shifted +6C upwards. However, these changes are slow! You can watch the coolant temp change up or down and 2C in a minute is about the limit either way. When you start the stress test and the CPU temp goes from 30 to 80C, that is all voltage and CPU physical properties. There isn't much you can do about the physical aspects. You can refine the voltage and power behaviors.

Get off Auto voltage if you are using it. You can still use adaptive voltage, it just has to be dialed in. I don't have any GA boards, so I can't walk you through their BIOS. Certainly on the Asus end there are several redundant settings that will all clock things up when you might not be expecting. There likely is a motherboard specific guide out there that can pin down everything that needs to be modified. Your temp swing at the top 85-90C then dropping to mid-70s is too much to be cooler related. The voltage may not be staying at that 1.24v level.
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  #7  
Old 10-16-2019, 07:32 AM
Nazgul Nazgul is offline
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Get the be quiet Dark Rock Pro 4, is better looking and performs head to head with the NH-D15. Plus it has 7 pipes vs 6.

I got one and from using both, aesthetics is somewhat important and the DRP4 is so much better and performance-wise both are equal I'd say.

IMO and experience, a CPU block that's just bare copper (like all AIO) doesn't cut it anymore for this Multi-CPUs and both, my new CPU water block in the Hydro Loop and DRP4 have Nickel-Plated base and definitely make a difference, so much so that the DRP4 does a better job cooling my i7 7700K by 10 degrees lower than the AIO 280mm RAD.

Last edited by Nazgul; 10-16-2019 at 07:37 AM.
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  #8  
Old 10-16-2019, 07:39 AM
c-attack c-attack is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rx7dude View Post
I am highly considering upgrading to a Noctua NH-D15 Chromax Black the newly released ones. Would this give me better temperatures? I am kind of getting annoyed with AIO cooling as the results seem to be in favor of Air coolers both performance and noise wise.
Generally speaking an air cooler is usually quieter than water cooling in a couple of ways. 1) No mechanical pump makes it quieter in low noise situations. 2) lower density (thicker) radiator makes less noise when air passes through it. However, no air tower is going to be able to keep up with a 280mm radiator in terms of heat capacity. Even if you find a benchmark test that says they are only "3C apart" (or whatever), in real world use your average temps are going to be considerably higher, particularly if you intend to overclock.

On the cooler end, you total coolant rise is 6-8C. That is the value you are attacking with fan and pump speeds. If I gave you a 2 meter long panel with 16x120mm fans, you could still only reduce your total CPU temp by 6-8C. We are all voltage limited on our CPUs and as Intel stretches the 14nm model to the umpteenth degree, there isn't much room left. All of these are going to run close to max right out of the box. From what I have seen, delidding on the 9000 series is not exactly overwhelming, unlike the 8000 series where it almost seemed mandatory for a 20C reduction. Refining voltage behavior is about all you can do.
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  #9  
Old 10-16-2019, 09:23 AM
rx7dude rx7dude is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazgul View Post
Get the be quiet Dark Rock Pro 4, is better looking and performs head to head with the NH-D15. Plus it has 7 pipes vs 6.

I got one and from using both, aesthetics is somewhat important and the DRP4 is so much better and performance-wise both are equal I'd say.

IMO and experience, a CPU block that's just bare copper (like all AIO) doesn't cut it anymore for this Multi-CPUs and both, my new CPU water block in the Hydro Loop and DRP4 have Nickel-Plated base and definitely make a difference, so much so that the DRP4 does a better job cooling my i7 7700K by 10 degrees lower than the AIO 280mm RAD.
I think I will get one of the 2 between DRP4 and NH-D15 Black. Not only because they provide similar if not better cooling than 240/280m AIO, but because you get peace of mind of nothing besides a fan failing.
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  #10  
Old 10-16-2019, 09:30 AM
rx7dude rx7dude is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c-attack View Post
Even with MCE disabled, there is a lot more to do to get most recent motherboard BIOS versions ready to run stress tests. The manufacturers goal is to get even the worst CPU in history to load up, not get the leanest temps possible for someone running a synthetic bench. When in doubt, pile on voltage.

CPU temps are voltage based and change instantly when this is the cause. A cooler, regardless of type, does not stop conducting heat no matter what you do with the fans or pump. If you don't get the heat out of the cooler, it eventually becomes an add-on penalty to the CPU. Coolant temperature is the minimum possible CPU temp, so when the coolant goes +6C, you have raised the baseline by 6 and with no other changes, the CPU temps are shifted +6C upwards. However, these changes are slow! You can watch the coolant temp change up or down and 2C in a minute is about the limit either way. When you start the stress test and the CPU temp goes from 30 to 80C, that is all voltage and CPU physical properties. There isn't much you can do about the physical aspects. You can refine the voltage and power behaviors.

Get off Auto voltage if you are using it. You can still use adaptive voltage, it just has to be dialed in. I don't have any GA boards, so I can't walk you through their BIOS. Certainly on the Asus end there are several redundant settings that will all clock things up when you might not be expecting. There likely is a motherboard specific guide out there that can pin down everything that needs to be modified. Your temp swing at the top 85-90C then dropping to mid-70s is too much to be cooler related. The voltage may not be staying at that 1.24v level.
Yes you may be right. However, HWInfo64, HWMonitor, and CPU-Z are all reporting a max voltage of 1.248 at 100% load. I don't know if there is something I am missing or what. The only reason I stay on auto-voltage is that I normally use my PC on the Balanced performance mode and have it set so that my CPU only runs at a max clock of 2.8ghz. I do not need the 4.6-4.8 turbo simply for using Firefox and Word. Auto voltage then drops the voltage due to that Balanced mode to around 0.652-0.848 volts. Do you think there is a possibility that these softwares are not reporting the right voltage? And if so, is there a way I can set a MAX voltage the motherboard is allowed to supply? Or should I just overclock my CPU to 4.8ghz across all cores?
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  #11  
Old 10-16-2019, 09:53 AM
c-attack c-attack is offline
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If you are trying to cap the frequency at lower levels (for whatever reasons), you would be better off setting up per core frequency within the BIOS. When all 8 cores are loaded 45 x 100, 4 cores 46x100, 2 cores 47, 1 x 48, or whatever your frequency targets are for your usage. Setting a specific adaptive voltage will still allow the value to drop when not fully loaded. The default "auto curve" tends to be on the high side and there are special behaviors built into. On some boards you can now alter these, but this is an area where you need GA specific knowledge. I suppose using Windows power plans is another way to do it, but software control may not be as efficient as the hardware level settings in some circumstances. The default high performance plan has a 100% minimum clock frequency, so you would be better off cloning the Balanced Plan and then raising maximum frequency back to 100% for mixed use.

Aside from all of that, your CPU temps are still going to be high when running at maximum stress test, particularly with AVX instructions. That's just how it is. When you start the test and your temps are 85-90C 1 second later, the cooler doesn't have anything to do with it.
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Old 10-16-2019, 02:05 PM
rx7dude rx7dude is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c-attack View Post
If you are trying to cap the frequency at lower levels (for whatever reasons), you would be better off setting up per core frequency within the BIOS. When all 8 cores are loaded 45 x 100, 4 cores 46x100, 2 cores 47, 1 x 48, or whatever your frequency targets are for your usage. Setting a specific adaptive voltage will still allow the value to drop when not fully loaded. The default "auto curve" tends to be on the high side and there are special behaviors built into. On some boards you can now alter these, but this is an area where you need GA specific knowledge. I suppose using Windows power plans is another way to do it, but software control may not be as efficient as the hardware level settings in some circumstances. The default high performance plan has a 100% minimum clock frequency, so you would be better off cloning the Balanced Plan and then raising maximum frequency back to 100% for mixed use.

Aside from all of that, your CPU temps are still going to be high when running at maximum stress test, particularly with AVX instructions. That's just how it is. When you start the test and your temps are 85-90C 1 second later, the cooler doesn't have anything to do with it.
Hello again friend, I decided to take your advice and adjust settings in the BIOS. Watching many guides on overclocking/undervolting. You were right. The motherboard was indeed not pushing 1.24 but rather 1.284 and nearing 1.3V for stock settings with 4.6 across all cores. 1.284V is insanely high for stock clocks so I toned it down to 1.18V as that is what got me to be stable. Temperatures are WAY down now. Before seeing an average of 83-85 and 90 sometimes, and now to high 60's and max of 72. Does that 72 spike still seem a little high for stock 4.6 at 1.18?
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Old 10-16-2019, 06:45 PM
c-attack c-attack is offline
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No, I don't think there is a 9000 series processor out there that won't hit 70 in some peak moment. While peak temps are important to keep you out of the silicon melting and throttling zone, I suspect your average temps are going to be way down as well. Picking stray or outlier peak values out a typical data set is pretty hard, but most do have an average (per session) type of log that should give you a better sense where things are usually at. Long duration line graphs are even better.
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Old 10-17-2019, 12:23 AM
rx7dude rx7dude is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c-attack View Post
No, I don't think there is a 9000 series processor out there that won't hit 70 in some peak moment. While peak temps are important to keep you out of the silicon melting and throttling zone, I suspect your average temps are going to be way down as well. Picking stray or outlier peak values out a typical data set is pretty hard, but most do have an average (per session) type of log that should give you a better sense where things are usually at. Long duration line graphs are even better.
My average temps are indeed way down now that I undervolted to 1.18V. I was playing a Plague Tale Innocence for a good hour or so and temperatures did not go past 54C with all cores running at 4.6 to 4.8. Before I would see them in the low to mid 60's.
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Old 10-18-2019, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by c-attack View Post
No, I don't think there is a 9000 series processor out there that won't hit 70 in some peak moment. While peak temps are important to keep you out of the silicon melting and throttling zone, I suspect your average temps are going to be way down as well. Picking stray or outlier peak values out a typical data set is pretty hard, but most do have an average (per session) type of log that should give you a better sense where things are usually at. Long duration line graphs are even better.
Back to the bad news. Turned out my 1.188 was not stable after further testing. I decided to go the adaptive voltage route. Set an offset of -0.090 and under full 100% I have not seen anything more than 1.224V. Yay! Lower voltages than Auto...yeah the temperatures were not that friendly.

At 1.212 - 1.224V my 9700K at 4.6Ghz with the H115i Set to EXTREME on both fan and pump sees Cinebench reaching 80-82C and Aida64 hit 93C. Liquid temperatures rise FAST going from 31C to 43/44C almost after 2 minutes of Aida64. How the heck is a H115i not handling 1.212V??
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