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  #1  
Old 03-26-2012, 02:23 PM
nweissma nweissma is offline
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Default "system specific" and "certified" memory -- academic query

the subjects of "system specific" and "certified" memory are not reached by the search mechanism, and i think the topic relevant; sorry if this is a thorn in your side, RamGuy.

some oem's recommend "system specific" or "certified" memory. can you comment on the academics of this -- to what extent are the oems' claims justified?

one aspect that just begs to be addressed is kitting: some module mfg's (Corsair, eg) stress the need for kitting -- urging that it's sine qua non for multi-channel operation -- yet the system specific protagonists don't even offer it.

another bothersome element is that the system specific protagonists recommend speeds that need to be downclocked -- in my case, the sysbo is rated for 1066MHz, and the oem's recommended 'system specific' ram is 1333MHz. this sounds oxymoronic to me: how can something be "system specific" and yet it will not function unless it's modified. (à propos, the lowest speed that Corsair offers is 1333MHz)

and what of "certified" memory-- do the claims have merit?
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Old 03-26-2012, 03:58 PM
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I am sorry but your questions are too general in nature to answer as asked.
Please be more specific who is the OEM and/or what is the make and model of MB or system we are talking about?

So if you are talking about an OEM system like an HP, Dell, or Gateway Ect for example that would be a totally different question and answer than say for a retail mother board like an ASUS, Gigabyte, or MSI for example.

But in the case of MB makers IE ASUS, MSI or Gigabyte Ect they usually provide a list of tested memory and that is all that list is; memory that was tested usually at the time of MB development, so while the list in a valid reference it may not be accurate or up to date and why most of these manufacturers suggest asking the respective memory manufacturers. But that is all it is, just a list of memory that was tested.
OEM systems are a totally different animal and depending on the CPU and chipset that is used in that specific system it may be a requirement to use what the respective OEM listed.
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Old 03-26-2012, 04:19 PM
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your opening answer is enlightening!

to be specific: the system oem is Dell -- the Optiplex 580 http://support.dell.com/support/edoc....htm#wp1112111

Dell recommends system specific, but is prevaricative on "why." and they recommend two different models (2 different part numers) but can't explain the difference between them (if you want, i will offer you the url's to Dell's recommended system specific modules)


the second computer oem is "Velocity Micro," whose cpu and sysbo are by intel (the details can be seen in my dropdown profile - i need to add memory). intel is recommending memory that has been "certified" by CMTL Labs (obviously, that has not been the case all these years because Corsair has been populating it), and i can send you the url/.pdf stating Intel's recommended ram features.

and one more question begs: why is memory "being tested" an important factor -- what does this testing consist of; why might one memory (eg, Corsair) fail the test, while another passes ?

Last edited by nweissma; 03-26-2012 at 04:37 PM. Reason: one more question
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Old 03-26-2012, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
your opening answer is enlightening!
to be specific: the system oem is Dell -- the Optiplex 580
A: The slowest memory we make would be DDR1333 and in most cases I would expect it to down clock to what the system supports so it should not be a problem. But we would not list memory for that system. because of the slower speed. I would expect any of the modules listed for AMD Memory Upgrades will work but I would only suggest DDR1333 as any other choice will likely work but only at DDR1066. However , since your system is not listed in our memory configurator we can guarantee it will work. I would suggest just using the memory that was suggested by the respective OEM to be 100% sure you don't have any problems, but if you want to try the modules we make I think I gave you enough to get your self in trouble. ;-) and I am sorry but I prefer not to comment on what Dell has to say, no offense.
Quote:
the second computer oem is "Velocity Micro," whose cpu and sysbo are by intel (the details can be seen in my dropdown profile - i need to add memory). intel is recommending memory that has been "certified" by CMTL Labs (obviously, that has not been the case all these years because Corsair has been populating it), and i can send you the url/.pdf stating Intel's recommended ram features.
A: Intel has what they call the CMTL Labs and we as rule do not pay other companies to test our modules we never have the cost for this service is quite high and is only for one specific Build and one MB. The testing we do is much more complex and not necessarily system or MB specific. The best thing to do in this case would be to search for the Mother board or system on our Memory Configurator Volatility Micro is an ODM that uses Retail MB's in many of their systems and also use our memory so there is likely a direct upgrade option for that system depending on the model of the system

Quote:
and one more question begs: why is memory "being tested" an important factor -- what does this testing consist of; why might one memory (eg, Corsair) fail the test, while another passes ?
A: I am sorry but I would need more specific information to properly address this question. But if a MB is listed on our memory configurator and it fails we will be happy to replace it for life. However, may of memory modules are listed as an Over Clock and as such there is no way we can guarantee that every possible configuration will be able to over clock as we test the modules.
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Old 03-26-2012, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAM GUY View Post
Volatility Micro is an ODM that uses ...
why do you use the moniker "Volatility Micro" and "ODM" instead of OEM?


this is the only 1333MHz AMD Memory Upgrade that i see: http://www.corsair.com/memory/amd-me...m2a1333c9.html ... which has timings 9-9-9- , which is at odds with the current (Dell-populated) 1 x 2GB1066MHz 7-7-7-20-27 .. what are the consequences of such different timings?

Last edited by nweissma; 03-26-2012 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 03-27-2012, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
why do you use the moniker "Volatility Micro" and "ODM" instead of OEM?
Just a typo i believe. Same goes for the sentence in the first paragraph.

Quote:
since your system is not listed in our memory configurator we can guarantee it will work.
this should be ...since your system is not in our memory confugurator we can NOT guarantee it will work.
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by RAM GUY View Post
[B]A: The slowest memory we make would be DDR1333 and in most cases I would expect it to down clock to what the system supports so it should not be a problem. But we would not list memory for that system. because of the slower speed. I would expect any of the modules listed for AMD Memory Upgrades will work but I would only suggest DDR1333 as any other choice will likely work but only at DDR1066.
this is the only 1333MHz AMD Memory Upgrade that i see: http://www.corsair.com/memory/amd-me...m2a1333c9.html ... which has timings 9-9-9- , which is at odds with the current (Dell-populated) 1 x 2GB1066MHz 7-7-7-20-27 .. what are the consequences of such different timings?
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Old 03-27-2012, 05:57 PM
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Well No; ODM means Original Design Manufacturer
which "Velocity Micro," would qualify for; not that it makes much difference OEM verses ODM.

Quote:
this is the only 1333MHz AMD Memory Upgrade that i see: http://www.corsair.com/memory/amd-me...m2a1333c9.html ... which has timings 9-9-9- , which is at odds with the current (Dell-populated) 1 x 2GB1066MHz 7-7-7-20-27 .. what are the consequences of such different timings?
A: And in most cases it should slow down to the next slowest speed IE DDR1066, but I have seen cases (especially Dell systems that would not work as expected) so if you try them I would just check with the reseller as to their return policy should they not work in your system.
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Old 03-27-2012, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by RAM GUY View Post
should they not work in your system.
but this is exactly what i've been trying to isolate:

SPECIFICALLY, IN CONCRETE TERMS: FOR WHAT REASONS MIGHT MODULES NOT WORK IN A SYSTEM?


and you never completed your sentence:
Quote:
but I have seen cases (especially Dell systems that would not work as expected)
... and? were you about to say that these 1333's might not downclock?


one final question: let's suppose these modules do downclock, and let's suppose they don't downclock -- what are the consequences of the 7-7-7-20-27, which Dell shipped, versus the 9-9-9- that RamGuy is advocating?

Last edited by nweissma; 03-27-2012 at 06:55 PM.
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Old 03-27-2012, 07:43 PM
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The modules will downclock, however that doesn't mean that the Dell has the capability to downclock. Their BIOSes are usually VERY locked down and minimalistic. I'd guess this is to make it easier for your general non-techie consumer.

I used to do Dell phone tech support years ago, and I recall one meeting about memory where some people from the corporate office came in and ranted on and on about top tier memory and strict regulations and whatnot. Of course then Dell goes ahead and will gladly recommend and sell you memory that meets the general specs, but isn't compatible. Left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.


Question: Are you using CPU-Z to determine the actual speed / timings of the Dell memory, or are you just going by the label?
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Old 03-27-2012, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Well No; ODM means Original Design Manufacturer
Ooops! Sorry RG. I know you have fast fingers, just figured it was a slip!

Quote:
SPECIFICALLY, IN CONCRETE TERMS: FOR WHAT REASONS MIGHT MODULES NOT WORK IN A SYSTEM?
It could be a number of things. The difference in the chips used to make the modules them selves would be among the top. Difference in density, voltages and so on.
Quote:
one final question: let's suppose these modules do downclock, and let's suppose they don't downclock -- what are the consequences of the 7-7-7-20-27, which Dell shipped, versus the 9-9-9- that RamGuy is advocating?
It the Corsair modules would work they WOULD downclock. It will automatically default to 1066mhz. As that is the max supported speed your system can handle. You would have to manually overclock them to get the 1333mhz to run at 1333mhz. This is a limitation of your processor. And as wired pointed out most Dell BIOS's are very basic and will not give you the options needed to change memory settings

There would be no consequences because of the difference in timings. The CL7 Dell modules would be a slightly faster set. The lower the timing the faster. HOWEVER since the Corsair modules are rated for CL 9@1333mhz it might be possible to tighten the timings at a lower frequency(1066mhz) making them just as fast if not faster.

I have owned several Dell machines and they are the number one reason i build my own now. They use a lot of proprietary components that for what ever reason will only run on their machines, making them virtually impossible to upgrade. Not to mention being charged twice the price for half the quality of components you could easily pick off the shelf.


Quote:
Of course then Dell goes ahead and will gladly recommend and sell you memory that meets the general specs, but isn't compatible. Left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
Ding ding, give the man a cigar!!!!!!!

Last edited by peanutz94; 03-27-2012 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 03-27-2012, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by peanutz94 View Post
It the Corsair modules would work they WOULD downclock. It will automatically default to 1066mhz. As that is the max supported speed your system can handle. You would have to manually overclock them to get the 1333mhz to run at 1333mhz. This is a limitation of your processor. And as wired pointed out most Dell BIOS's are very basic and will not give you the options needed to change memory settings
Just to be crystal clear, if a Dell BIOS doesn't see EXACTLY what it's expecting, e.g. a SPD with a certain setting or whatnot, it may just not run at all.
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Old 03-27-2012, 09:47 PM
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Just to be crystal clear, if a Dell BIOS doesn't see EXACTLY what it's expecting, e.g. a SPD with a certain setting or whatnot, it may just not run at all.
Correct! We are on the same page!
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:27 PM
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And nweissma this is my point; in that OEM systems can be UN-predictable with an untested configuration, but I have not seen as many issues like this with AMD based Dell's. In fact; I have never seen this happen with an AMD system as the memory controller is in the CPU and will read the SPD before the MB BIOS does.
Hopefully we have not confused you more than you were before you came here but I think bottom line you would just have to try it. Sorry we could not give you a more concrete answer. But if you do decide to try our modules I would just check what the resellers return policy is just in case they do not work.

Quote:
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Just to be crystal clear, if a Dell BIOS doesn't see EXACTLY what it's expecting, e.g. a SPD with a certain setting or whatnot, it may just not run at all.
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:27 PM
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RamGuy: is this guaranteed to work on my AMD-based Dell Optiplex 580 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...0-_-03282012_4

it is not explicitly mentioned in your memory-configurator.
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