Jump to content
Corsair Community

H100 Pump pressure


devilsspawn

Recommended Posts

This spec is not available. Coolit did not provide this spec to us.

 

... did anyone from Corsair ask COOLIT ----------- or, even know to ask ??

 

Always thought that was a strange spec to be missing, left out, omitted, disregarded (pump psi)...

... flow rate's another one ...

 

The next logical question might be about in-house product testing (to maybe, find out for yourselves) ...

... but something tells me, that's not a good place to go either ...

 

Kinda' makes me wonder, what else is not known by Corsair about their own product(s) ??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As for the pump's specs, even if Corsair knew them, I'd totally understand why they wouldn't share them. It's a closed loop, sealed system. You don't need that data, because they give you the warranty that it works *as is*.

The only reason why you might want to know that is when you want to modify the unit, and they won't encourage that, for example by providing you with that data.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It cant be more than 3-5 PSI max if that. Look for videos on youtube that show the pumps flow.

 

Besides pressure is not as important as volume. You can have all the pressure in the world , but if you have no volume of flow, then it's not going to cool.

 

The H-series pumps are pretty low volume as well. Thats why they are not as good as custom loop if you really OC heavy. BUt for moderate OC they are just fine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Corsair Employees
... did anyone from Corsair ask COOLIT ----------- or, even know to ask ??

 

This spec is neglectable relative to the cooler's performance due to the amount of water in loop is a very small volume.

 

Kinda' makes me wonder, what else is not known by Corsair about their own product(s) ??

 

We've missed one or two =P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We've missed one or two =P

 

This seems incredibly flippant and not really appropriate. People have paid good money for your products which are clearly delivering sub-par performance and you don't even know the specs about the products you're branding as your own?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Separate pumps for PC liquid cooling systems will usually provide a pressure spec. But once you read it, what do you do with it? Can you test it to verify the spec? What do you use to test it and what is the procedure? Do we know what the manufactures test procedure is? Is their a standard test procedure?

 

You can compare the specs of pumps, but were they tested in the same way? Do we trust that the specs are always accurate?

 

This reminds me of PC fan specs, noise level and air movement in CFM. How do you check these specs? What is the standard procedure? Sure there is expensive equipment and generally for sound or noise usually an anechoic chamber is used. Who owns that? IMO, PC fan specs on noise and CFM are virtually worthless.

 

Pump pressure is another spec that is virtually meaningless, particularly on an all in one liquid cooler like the Corsair, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This spec is neglectable relative to the cooler's performance due to the amount of water in loop is a very small volume.

 

Gheeeez ... spec's on a "need to know" basis ... :rofl:

 

So, now you "think" you can tell consumers what spec's they "need to know", & what spec's they "don't need to know" ??

... interesting (guess an educated consumer can be a terrible thing) ---- but, how 'bout the spec's that "you" just might "need to know" ?? ... :!oops:

 

I mean; how can you actually make it better, if ....................... :dunno:

... (couldn't help but notice you jumped right past that "in-house testing" thing) ... ;):

 

MARKETING 101 : Here ya' go :newbie: --- "trust me"-you don't need to know that; just "eat this, watch our You Tube video", & "give us your money" ... :roll:

 

And for someone to imply that specs don't mean anything; "virtually meaningless"; is just simply amazing ...

... the "kool-aid of konvenience", just seems to flow endlessly here in Korsairansas ------------ 'eh toto ... ;):

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a licensed Merchant Marine Engineer for 28 years, specializing in high pressure hydraulics (6,000 PSI and above) all OEM specifications (of this type) will get you in a closed loop system is (in a real time pressure monitored system, all four sensor points, before and after the pump unit and radiator) is the flow rate through the radiator and the slippage rate of the pump and any wear degradation over time. It would be better to add temperature sensors before and after the radiator to check on the Delta T thought the unit. The additional costs for adding the needed sensors (over and above voiding your warranty) would probably be way over $500 for decent pressure sensors and adding potential leakage points. It is very easy to add Delta T sensors as the Cooling Node is all ready set up to do that. To check pump flow, you need a monitored flow sensor, adding flow restriction to the closed loop and adding an extra drag to the pump that it was not designed for.There are ultrasonic units, but they run way above what any normal person would consider acceptable for PC use.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

After doing some extra research at "CoolIT.com and (listening to the comments), the sub-contractors' website lists some information about their systems.

The "ECO II" pump unit "CoolIt" has a 12 Vdc, nominal current draw of 0.1 Amp, drawing 1.2 watt. The maximum flow rate is 2 Liters/ minute. The max. head is 112 cm of H2Oand max. noise level of 23 dBa at 2100 RPM +/- 10%.

 

The pump unit for the "ECO II-120" varies with the flow rate of 0.94 Liters/ minute. The basic difference between the two is the halved flow rate for the ECO II. Normally this would indicate that with the pump prime mover staying the same the pump displacement has been halved. I can't be sure which unit applies to the Corsair units as obviously these numbers should apply as proprietary information for contracting parties involved. Sooooo...., some more info for the masses who care.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I measured about 130 - 150mA draw on H100, so that would match the specs of ECO II found here:

http://www.coolitsystems.com/index.php/products/cpu-coolers/eco-ii-alc-cpu-cooler.html

 

This also provides some interesting info that the motor of the pump isn't directly-fed brushed motor, but a brushless motor, with an electronic controller. This begs a question "How come then that the pump will exceed it's rated speed when the voltage is above 12,00V, if an electronic controller can easily account for that and keep the RPM steady?".

 

I tried to request data sheets but the form wouldn't submit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good stuff right there taz - I did not know Cool It Systems was still in business - "darn it" ...

... "the horse" themselves ---- sorta' feel like I'm sittin' on one of those "ride for a quarter" things now ... :sigh!:

 

... & real product spec's to boot - "whatta' ya' make of that" ?? ... :cool:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I measured about 130 - 150mA draw on H100, so that would match the specs of ECO II found here:

http://www.coolitsystems.com/index.php/products/cpu-coolers/eco-ii-alc-cpu-cooler.html

 

This also provides some interesting info that the motor of the pump isn't directly-fed brushed motor, but a brushless motor, with an electronic controller. This begs a question "How come then that the pump will exceed it's rated speed when the voltage is above 12,00V, if an electronic controller can easily account for that and keep the RPM steady?".

 

I tried to request data sheets but the form wouldn't submit.

 

Simply to discuss this, and not to say what is correct or not, since I don't know all the details, I believe the following makes sense.

 

All PC fans use brush-less motors, and given the added difficulty of sealing the armature of a motor with brushes when used in a liquid pump, a brush-less motor armature in a liquid pump makes sense. I believe there is a safety concern with motor armatures that use brushes, since they create sparks when in use, which is why they are not used in PC fans.

 

Can we assume (or know) that a PC fan or these pumps use an electronic controller whose purpose is to limit the motors speed when excess voltage is applied? I've never seen a PC fan that runs at a rock-steady speed, even with the usually very steady and accurate voltage of a PC power supply. Given the well defined voltage specs of a PC power supply, would such a controller even be added to a fan or pump? Since keeping things low in price is a primary motivation, and adding a controller like that would increase the price, while likely never being needed, their omission would be no surprise IMO.

 

Since we know that we can vary a PC fan's speed by changing the voltage applied to it, and we know we can change the H-series pump speed by lowering the voltage applied to it by a small amount with a diode, it seems obvious that a voltage regulating controller is not used in either of these devices. Of course, a voltage regulating device is not perfect and has limitations regarding the range of voltages it is able to compensate for when in use. I just don't see any evidence that one exists in these devices.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...

And for someone to imply that specs don't mean anything; "virtually meaningless"; is just simply amazing ...

... the "kool-aid of konvenience", just seems to flow endlessly here in Korsairansas ------------ 'eh toto ... ;):

 

When you critique someone's statement, and want to have some credibility when doing so, then don't change the statement you are critiquing, as you've done with mine.

 

Also, when we wonder why a rep from a company does not respond to a question in a forum, this is a good example why they don't. A honest answer was given, and then the rep was flamed for doing so. Nice...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do believe that "flaming" does no one any good, it only results lack of communication and a quick demonstration of apparent iqnorance on the part of the "flamer". Just remember. "Ignorance can be cured by knowledge, stupid goes clear to the bone. " (Old West Texas proverb).
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Jimrun, In a closed loop hydraulic cooling system, the static developed head (pressure) of the pump is essentially meaningless because the pump while in use only has to overcome the resistance that the cooling fluid sees while being pumped around the loop. The running pressure will always be significantly less than the maximum pressure unless a loop blockage occurs. If a blockage occurs, two things will happen, as the pump slips, power useage goes up and coolant temperature will rise and your CPU temp will go up like a rocket due to lack of Delta T applied.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for posting the information. For me at least, the result of a bit of information just creates more questions, which is fine, it helps me realize how complex and variable the entire system really is, and I learn from that.

 

I thought the flow rate would be less than the figure given, ~ 1 Liter per minute, given the incidental and casual reports about the H-series pumps in this forum. But that is the "Maximum flow rate", and the conditions or environment the pump is tested in is unknown. All we can learn or infer from that spec is that the flow rate of the pump is very likely less than that in use, and also varies depending upon a number of variables.

 

This flow rate is also a fraction of that of a typical separate pump sold for use in a PC liquid cooling system. No surprise in that for me, considering the entire system. Actually for me, the Thermal Resistance spec is the most interesting, something that is not usually if ever given in CPU cooler specs. That is, if any are provided besides the physical size and mounting options of the cooler.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Jimrun, In a closed loop hydraulic cooling system, the static developed head (pressure) of the pump is essentially meaningless because the pump while in use only has to overcome the resistance that the cooling fluid sees while being pumped around the loop.The running pressure will always be significantly less than the maximum pressure unless a loop blockage occurs.

Hey Taz, i also have a backround in hydraulics, i wont get into it for fear of the last time i got on this subject...but this is spot on :)

 

BTW...I LOVE THIS!

"Ignorance can be cured by knowledge, stupid goes clear to the bone. " (Old West Texas proverb).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All this talking about fluids (air and water based cooling), pressure heads and hydraulics brought to my mind (a very dangerous thing indeed to have happen), memories of episodes in "Star Trek: Voyager" in which Species 8472 existed in "fluidic space" This is not to be confused with our fluidic space with which we cool our computing devices. At least I hope not as our systems would be ravaged by alien wars! O.K., now back to the somewhat real world and our problems.....
Link to comment
Share on other sites

parces - I swear I have responded to you, but it's nowhere to be found :confused:

 

Anyway, the use of brushless motors is dictated not by sparks or lack of thereof, but rather because of space constraints and noise. Brushed motor, due to its mechanical commutator, takes much more space, of which less is "active". And even more importantly, they are significantly louder and generate more EMI, which isn't nice to have inside a PC. Also brushes wear off (and leave a residue) so brushless motor is fairly maintenance-free in comparison.

 

On the other hand, brushless motor needs an electronic commutator, and to drive such an engine is not a trivial task (I've tried with CD and HDD motors), you can't just hook up a power supply to its windings and hope for the best like you can do with a brushed motor. So I'd say any day that brushless is in fact more expensive than brushed because of the added electronics.

 

And I was just thinking aloud, not stating a fact, that if the unit must have a controller for the brushless motor, that controller could as well attempt to cap the RPM on the unit when the voltage is too high instead of just generating the phases "blindly". Or even better and simpler, just a 12V Zener diode on the circuit (excluding the fan controller for even more simplicity) would take care of that capping the voltage at 12,00V.

The BLDC controller is nothing like a voltage regulator and you got me wrong there, it's rather a DC-AC converter. But it has to rely on back-EMF from the windings, or Hall sensors, therefore sensing the RPM, so it's entirely possible for it to adjust the RPM to desired value rather than go at full speed all the time.

So I see two ways of doing that, hardware change - not nice - or firmware change - better.

 

Anyway, the spec says 2100RPM +/- 10%, so let's assume that the units running at 2200 - 2300 RPM (these are the most common that grind) are running as they should. That means the problem is in manufacturing or design of either bearing or housing, that is preventing the normal operation of the unit at speeds it's supposed to achieve according to specs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On the other hand, brushless motor needs an electronic commutator, and to drive such an engine is not a trivial task (I've tried with CD and HDD motors), you can't just hook up a power supply to its windings and hope for the best like you can do with a brushed motor. So I'd say any day that brushless is in fact more expensive than brushed because of the added electronics
.

Exactly! Take electric R/C cars of today as an example.. Most of us have now adopted the use of DC brushless motors. The initial cost can be double if not more than that of a traditional brushed motor setup. Mostly due to the added "controller" needed to drive the motor. And the cost of the motor vs a brushed motor.

 

Just like creating a "fan profile" I can hook them up to my computer and set max voltage,rpm, and torque curves. So i don't see why this couldn't be an option for the hydro series controllers to be limited just the same.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

parces - I swear I have responded to you, but it's nowhere to be found :confused: ...

 

 

And I was just thinking aloud, not stating a fact, that if the unit must have a controller for the brushless motor...

 

Curious, I don't recall seeing a reply that is now gone. Stuff happens...

 

I never considered this to be a debate, simply a discussion. I too was just thinking out loud, as I prefaced my statements with:

 

Simply to discuss this, and not to say what is correct or not, since I don't know all the details, I believe the following makes sense.

 

Regardless of the reasons, if any, why we only see brushless fan motors in PCs (hmm, what about the AC voltage powered fans for computer applications that exist. Not an easy to use option for the consumer, but they are used in professional situations) I think it's clear that PC fans are not very expensive. A fan motors torque and RPM requirements are much lower than other electric motors, such as used in RC vehicles. They are similar is some aspects, and different in others.

 

Anyway, to continue the discussion, your point that pump noise can be related to it's speed, and that reducing that speed can cure the noise issue, is obviously true. But can we say that the pumps speed is the main or only cause of noise in all cases? As you have said yourself, that is an oversimplification of the situation, which is also my opinion about this.

 

For example, I have two H60's, that only use 12V power to operate the pump, their fan is powered independently. I have their pump connected directly to my PS, with a molex to three pin fan adapter. The pump is not powered via the mother board. I do not have noise issues with either of my H60s, which have been in use for about six months. I assume that a direct connection to my PS provides a more unrestricted, steady, and slightly higher voltage power source than a connection to a mother board. That would result in the pumps speed being as high as it is capable of, given that my PS is operating correctly.

 

My point is that IMO we cannot conclude that the pumps speed alone is the factor causing noise. Also, not all pumps have noise issues. It's great that the simple reduction of the pumps speed with your diode mod, etc, can cure the noise issue, but that symptom ("excessive" speed) does not tell the whole story, IMO.

 

I wrote a theoretical analysis of the noise issue in the Pump Pressure thread, which I would like you to comment on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with you.

Furthermore, I wouldn't even say at all that "speed is the main or only cause of the noise". It's just a byproduct. The pump is running at speeds it's supposed to, the speed is right, it's within specs even on 12,3V PSUs.

But the fact that some pumps don't behave as they should at speeds typical to them means to me that the cause is either a design or manufacturing flaw. Especially the units that will keep rattling on down to 1700RPM or so.

 

Very good shot of pump's internals:

 

http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy242/tcung82/photo-2.jpg

 

BLDC motor, the rotor is just the impeller, there's probably a very short shaft coming out of the impeller and into the stator's sleeve bearing. Have the PC in "up" position and the gravity will put a side stress on the shaft, if the stator's bearing isn't very tight, that could cause the impeller to vibrate and/or collide with a) the stator or b) the housing beneath the impeller. I would love to have one of those units in my hands to take apart and investigate :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...