TWIN2X4096-8500C5DF Timing help

[Technophobe]

Just upgraded from Corsair XMS2 6400 C4s to the above 8500 C5s. Due to FSB settings and mem multipiers I have set (and that I want to keep), the new ones are running at 976 with 5,5,5,15 timings. I know I am only short changing myself here by about 90MHz (10%) but I want to squeeze as much as I can out of them.

 

What timings would you suggest I could go to and still be stable (e.g. 4,4,4,12 ???). Still keep them to 2.1 volts?

 

P.S. My 6400 C4s ran fine at 976 with 5,5,5,15 timings...

[RAM GUY]

What timings would you suggest I could go to and still be stable (e.g. 4,4,4,12 ???). Still keep them to 2.1 volts?

 

2.1v is the max on these modules. As far as tighter timings at a lower frequency, the only way to know is to set the timings manually and yourself and test it for stability. Your individual memory and MOBO memory controller will play into it so there is no blanket yes or no answer here. You'll have to test it.

 

I'd suggest that you try changing the timings 1 at a time, and also boot to a Memtest disk each time you make a change. If the system cannot do 1 pass of Memtest then don't try the OS as you may corrupt your install.

[DerekT]

No one can tell you the timings you will make. Just set to 2.1v and test to see what you can make. ie.

5-4-5-15 --> 5-4-4-15 --> 5-4-4-12 --> 4-5-5-15 --> 4-4-4-15 --> 4-4-4-12

[Technophobe]

Thanks DerekT, for info, I got to 5,4,4,12 before it had problems.

[DerekT]

That's pretty good for 976MHz actually.

Thanks DerekT, for info, I got to 5,4,4,12 before it had problems.

[cnchang]

2.1v is the max on these modules. As far as tighter timings at a lower frequency, the only way to know is to set the timings manually and yourself and test it for stability. Your individual memory and MOBO memory controller will play into it so there is no blanket yes or no answer here. You'll have to test it.

 

I'd suggest that you try changing the timings 1 at a time, and also boot to a Memtest disk each time you make a change. If the system cannot do 1 pass of Memtest then don't try the OS as you may corrupt your install.

 

Would it be easier to pick a mobo supporting EPP as stated on its spec? If a mobo says it supports EPP, would it free users from the burden of proof whether it will run at EPP specified rate(e.g., @1066 5-5-5-15 2T) with specified voltage 2.1V when popping in SLI-Ready or EPP coded DRAMs? Just pop in EPP memory sticks on EPP-conformant board, and there it runs at EPP rate. If it fails, then it would be either mobo or memory failure. It is that simple. Since EPP standard is set and adopted by many, why not take advantage of it?

 

BTW, I can not tell the difference between TWIN2X4096-8500C5D and TWIN2X4096-8500C5DF except an extra "air flow" logo on 8500C5DF. What does this air flow logo mean? Doesn't air flow on TWIN2X4096-8500C5D as well?

--------------------

http://www.corsair.com/_datasheets/TWIN2X4096-8500C5D.pdf

http://www.corsair.com/_datasheets/TWIN2X4096-8500C5DF.pdf

[Wired]

In the part #, F = FAN. In otherwords, it comes with a fan.

[DerekT]

EPP only works in some Nvidia boards (not all) and only works with 2 modules. As well, even in the boards that it works (documentation supports EPP) there are many who still can not find stability unless they set the speed/timings manually. Since Nvidia has now dealt with Intel regarding the new X58 chipset, there will be no more Nvidia Intel CPU based chipsets.

 

As well, you must enter BIOS and link your system to EPP (if supported) and then test, just as you have to when you enter other systems BIOS's and set the Speed and Timings.

 

Would it be easier to pick a mobo supporting EPP as stated on its spec? If a mobo says it supports EPP, would it free users from the burden of proof whether it will run at EPP specified rate(e.g., @1066 5-5-5-15 2T) with specified voltage 2.1V when popping in SLI-Ready or EPP coded DRAMs? Just pop in EPP memory sticks on EPP-conformant board, and there it runs at EPP rate. If it fails, then it would be either mobo or memory failure. It is that simple. Since EPP standard is set and adopted by many, why not take advantage of it?

 

BTW, I can not tell the difference between TWIN2X4096-8500C5D and TWIN2X4096-8500C5DF except an extra "air flow" logo on 8500C5DF. What does this air flow logo mean? Doesn't air flow on TWIN2X4096-8500C5D as well?

--------------------

http://www.corsair.com/_datasheets/TWIN2X4096-8500C5D.pdf

http://www.corsair.com/_datasheets/TWIN2X4096-8500C5DF.pdf

[cnchang]

Wired, Thank you! F is for Fan. I should have thought about that. ;):

But, in my referred link http://www.corsair.com/_datasheets/TWIN2X4096-8500C5DF.pdf , TWIN2X4096-8500C5DF doesn't grow a fan or two. Are the fan/fans on the other side of the photo picture?

 

EPP only works in some Nvidia boards (not all) and only works with 2 modules. As well, even in the boards that it works (documentation supports EPP) there are many who still can not find stability unless they set the speed/timings manually. Since Nvidia has now dealt with Intel regarding the new X58 chipset, there will be no more Nvidia Intel CPU based chipsets.

 

As well, you must enter BIOS and link your system to EPP (if supported) and then test, just as you have to when you enter other systems BIOS's and set the Speed and Timings.

 

Yah, like your recommendation, it becomes a norm to ask users to try their lucks these days. Is there a norm spec range recommended by EPP(e.g., 2.0V +/- 0.2V, or DDR2-1066 should never have CAS latency less than 4, DDR2-800 should never have CAS latency less than 3, etc) just like JEDEC for SPD in general(e.g., 1.8V +/- 0.1V)? If the answer is YES, then I think if mobo manufactures clearly states EPP is supported on certain board this board's BIOS better reads EPP and runs stably according to the EPP spec. Otherwise, why commit to a standard and then let users take the burden of proof with their own risks. Don't you think it would be easier and go without false expectations if those who adopted a standard just stick to it?

[Wired]

But, in my referred link http://www.corsair.com/_datasheets/TWIN2X4096-8500C5DF.pdf , TWIN2X4096-8500C5DF doesn't grow a fan or two. Are the fan/fans on the other side of the photo picture?

No, but it is mentioned on the page. Here's a pic:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835704001&Tpk=cmxaf1

[DerekT]

For your Intel Chipset based motherboard it is a moot point. EPP has nothing to do with your system.

 

Good luck.

 

Don't you think it would be easier and go without false expectations if those who adopted a standard just stick to it?

[cnchang]

DerekT, I hope you would not have taken it as a complain to you. It is only a matter of what specs can simply be trusted these days. Your hearty help based on the current situation is understandable and valued nonetheless. I only hope users can drive things into something not as complicated as long as we all agree to a standard.

 

Wired, your referred page led me to model CMXAF1. It seems model TWIN2X4096-8500C5DF are packed with two matched CM2X2048-8500C5D with fans. I see Corsair page got updated and mentioned about the Airflow fan now. But, photo image still shows no fan.

[DerekT]

There is the JEDEC standard for plug and play memory. High end, overclocking or Enthusiast memory is memory that is faster than the JEDEC standard.

 

You can find fully JEDEC standard memory in 99% of the OEM (HP, Compaq, etc.) and many of the mom and pop/home built varieties.

 

The high end memory is memory that exceeds JEDEC standards as such usually requires higher than JEDEC standard voltages for the higher than JEDEC standard speeds.

 

I only hope users can drive things into something not as complicated as long as we all agree to a standard

[cnchang]

The high end memory is memory that exceeds JEDEC standards as such usually requires higher than JEDEC standard voltages for the higher than JEDEC standard speeds.

 

I agree. Most DDR2-1066 are actually hand picked from good performing DDR2-800 chips. If you want performance, then there is a price to pay. But, let me model RAM selection into 5 choices and then explain my points:

 

1. Stick to the traditional Jedec standard 800 DRAM for safety and compatibility, but you may not see the full potential of the AM2+ CPUs which support 1066 natively with IMC.

 

2. Choose truely Jedec coherent 1066 chips with EPP coded for both performance and safety. For example, ***, DDR2-1150 using Qimonda chip HYB18T512800CF-19H, can even run 1150 5-5-5-18 at 2.1V~2.3V. For 1066 speed, according to Qimonda Data Sheet: "The DRAMs, on single module with EPP SPD settings, are tested to run at 1066 MHz at a latency timing of 5-5-5-15 at the standard DDR2 voltage value of 1.8 V." But, it comes with a price.

 

3. Choose DDR2-1066 with 7-7-7-24-32 or 5-7-7-24-31 timings. They may run around Jedec recommended voltages but will run slower than 5-5-5-15. They may have EPP coded in their SPD. They should have passed stringent tests for stability as well. For example, ********* runs 1066 7-7-7-24-32-2T at 1.9V.

 

4. Choose DDR2-1066 which can run 5-5-5-15 with the nominal voltage at 2.0V to 2.3V. Many of them are EPPed in ROM. By passing manufacture's stringent tests, they should be stable enough. For example, Corsair TWIN2X2048-8500C5D runs 1066 5-5-5-12 at 2.1V. *********** runs 1066 5-5-5-15-30-2T at 2.3V.

 

5. Choose and try some good DDR2-800 and DDR2-1066 DRAMs which claim overclockable to 1066 with the right voltage and timing combinations on the right mobos. Nothing is guaranteed though. No EPP. With the right combination, they can still be stable.

 

For choice makers 1 and 2, they are the spec abiders. They will not try to get the little extra performance at the cost of safty. Choice maker 1 is even willing to sacrifice performance for safety. For choice maker 3 and 4, they want performance but still not ready to yield much on safety. That's why they still try to abide by a less tighten EPP standard. Choice maker 5 seeks performance at any cost, but perhaps not its price though.

 

But, I see the lines between 3, 4, and 5 are getting blurred. Does EPP compliant mobo or RAMs guarantee anything these days? Before some questions get addressed, it would be hard to get any concrete answers. To name a few, how high is the voltage which is still safe for a system to operate 24/7? Is this safty standard agreed and abided by all parties, including mobo, chipset, CPU, and memory manufactures who claim they are EPP-ready? If EPP is not built for 24/7 operation, is there a thermal protection design to automatically downgrade the speed or latency timings to a safer and lower spec?

[DerekT]

There never was a guarantee with EPP as many boards that supported EPP did not work with it and some did so it was always a dice throw.

 

For new tech it is a moot point. EPP is an Nvidia created standard and Nvidia has stopped creating R&D for new motherboard chipsets. There is NO difference between the EPP setting and the manual setting if you set to EPP values. EPP just allows you to set automatically. It has nothing to do with safety or thermal protection.

 

You need to research EPP as you have the wrong idea of what EPP is, and as I said, it is a moot point from X58 onward as there will be NO new Intel CPU Nvidia based chipsets and EPP is an Nvidia based technology.

 

Does EPP compliant mobo or RAMs guarantee anything these days? Before some questions get addressed, it would be hard to get any concrete answers. To name a few, how high is the voltage which is still safe for a system to operate 24/7? Is this safty standard agreed and abided by all parties, including mobo, chipset, CPU, and memory manufactures who claim they are EPP-ready? If EPP is not built for 24/7 operation, is there a thermal protection design to automatically downgrade the speed or latency timings to a safer and lower spec?

[cnchang]

There never was a guarantee with EPP as many boards that supported EPP did not work with it and some did so it was always a dice throw.

 

For new tech it is a moot point. EPP is an Nvidia created standard and Nvidia has stopped creating R&D for new motherboard chipsets. There is NO difference between the EPP setting and the manual setting if you set to EPP values. EPP just allows you to set automatically. It has nothing to do with safety or thermal protection.

 

I agree that it is a dice throwing for now and that the current EPP may not have auto detection and overheat fallback functions specified because it is my proposal for taking both performance and safty into account. However, as to providing "guaranteed performance settings", it was part of the original plan as I learned.

 

1. ....will detect the presence of these new capabilities and prompt the user to set PC boot parameters for guaranteed optimized settings.

http://techgage.com/pr/nvidia_unveils_a_new_open_standard_memory_specification_designed_to_provide_higher_levels_of_system_performance

 

2. ...This allows EPP memory modules to perform at their optimal profile as specified by the memory manufacturer, providing users with tested and approved overclocked performance while maintaining JEDEC compatibility.

http://techgage.com/pr/corsair_announces_immediate_adoption_of_enhanced_performance_profiles_epp

 

I kinda agree currently NO new Intel CPU Nvidia based chipsets are in sight. But, if customers rebuild confidence on enhanced performance boards, who knows if nVidia chipsets will resurrect.

[DerekT]

I hope so. They have dropped R & D scale by over fifty percent in the January issued statement of quarterly records. However it all depends on performance, there is no doubt in my view that for the best speed and stability, the Intel performance chipsets for Intel chipset based boards have always been the best and most stable platforms.

 

Now XMP is basically another Intel copy, extend and copyright of EPP (gotta love those Intel business practices). :D:

 

I have personally found that the XMP and X58 chipset are a far better marry and allows me to set a memory maximal with one keystroke. I then can change the settings I wish. With EPP it was an either it worked, or it didn't work. So far I have only seen it working on all my installs. I could never say even close to the same with EPP. For my own personal installations opinion, it worked no better than two thirds of the time.

 

But, if customers rebuild confidence on enhanced performance boards, who knows if nVidia chipsets will resurrect.

[cnchang]

I could never say even close to the same with EPP. For my own personal installations opinion, it worked no better than two thirds of the time.

 

Did you install SLI-ready(or EPP encoded) Corsair RAMs on nForce6/nForce7 boards only to achieve no better than two thirds success? Or, you installed on a wide variety, including nVidia GeForce, AMD 780/790, and Intel P35/P45 boards.

[DerekT]

EPP/SLi has no reference with any Intel boards. All the machines of Nvidia chipsets that I have installed gave no better than two thirds success. This is an approximation as I have not documented. I have also installed other manufacturers memory and found that the same issues remained.

 

AMD machines have even more issues with their memory controller. It has been updated for DDR3 tables but the wonky memory controller still remains and I have found even worse attempts with high end memory and Phenom/PhenomII (DDR2 and 3).

 

Did you install SLI-ready(or EPP encoded) Corsair RAMs on nForce6/nForce7 boards only to achieve no better than two thirds success? Or, you installed on a wide variety, including nVidia GeForce, AMD 780/790, and Intel P35/P45 boards.

[cnchang]

AMD machines have even more issues with their memory controller. It has been updated for DDR3 tables but the wonky memory controller still remains and I have found even worse attempts with high end memory and Phenom/PhenomII (DDR2 and 3).

 

It seems to me this saga will never end in its fullness unless the nVidia boards that should support EPP but always fail to do so with any SLI-READY DDR2 are identified and kept tracked of or the always failed to achieve EPP SLI-READY DDR2s are identified and kept tracked of.

[DerekT]

As time moves onward you will see the Nvidia EPP standard dropped as it is already almost done for. So, it is as I said, a moot point.

 

It seems to me this saga will never end in its fullness unless when the nVidia boards that should support EPP but fail to do so with any SLI-READY DDR2 are identified and kept tracked or when the failed to achieve EPP SLI-READY DDR2s are identified and kept tracked.

[cnchang]

As time moves onward you will see the Nvidia EPP standard dropped as it is already almost done for. So, it is as I said, a moot point.

 

To me, it is a coin of two sides. If it is still hard to draw a conclusion or to build solid mobo/DRAM combinations for EPP on such a 3 yrs old mature technology, what can you expect from the else?

[DerekT]

I agree. If one extrapolates . . .

 

Plug and Play has often been Plug and Pray.

 

I also must admit that I have had ~95% working with XMP and the only work I have had to do is lower a few settings and retest so that I can marry the memory controller with the actual memory.

 

XMP has pretty much taken all of my past work attempting to create a speedy interface and rendered it superflous as the interface is solid and very speedy and a very uncomplicated method. Far superior to EPP in my view.

 

To me, it is a coin of two sides. If it is still hard to draw a conclusion or to build solid mobo/DRAM combinations for EPP on such a 3 yrs old mature technology, what can you expect from the else?

[cnchang]

I agree. If one extrapolates . . .

 

Plug and Play has often been Plug and Pray.

 

But, let alone those hundreds or thousands of uncertain combinations, will marry the Corsair Guaranteed-Compatible SLI-ready Memory with MSI K9N2G Neo-FD avoid this uncertainty? Will K9N2G Neo-FD GeForce 8200 mobo work with SLI-Ready DRAMs and use EPP settings?

 

http://www.corsair.com/configurator/product_results.aspx?id=671259#other_modules

[DerekT]

It's a dice throw if you are looking for SLi to work in your board. I would advise you to go with 6400C5 memory and that board. This is because there is no EPP settings on that memory and you can be guaranteed that SLi will not work. That's your only guarantee that you will get.

 

But, let alone those hundreds or thousands of uncertain combinations, will marry the Corsair Guaranteed-Compatible SLI-ready Memory with MSI K9N2G Neo-FD avoid this uncertainty? Will K9N2G Neo-FD GeForce 8200 mobo work with SLI-Ready DRAMs and use EPP settings?

 

http://www.corsair.com/configurator/product_results.aspx?id=671259#other_modules