Jump to content
Corsair Community

Water wetter


Poisonsnak

Recommended Posts

I saw a post by the cool guy with a link to where someone showed that water wetter inhibits corrosion. Anyway... in the automotive world it is fairly well known that 100% water with water wetter cools better than a 50-50 water/coolant mix with water wetter, which is better than plain old 50-50. The coolant is just used to lower the freezing point, raise the boiling point (not issues in your computer) and prevent corrosion (but the water wetter would take care of this). Water wetter also reduces the water's surface tension. So what I'm asking is if it would be ok to run this system with a bottle of water wetter instead of the green coolant supplied, because I think it would give lower temps and still prevent corrosion just as well. For reference check out this link [url]http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/17.pdf[/url].
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Poisonsnak']I saw a post by the cool guy with a link to where someone showed that water wetter inhibits corrosion. Anyway... in the automotive world it is fairly well known that 100% water with water wetter cools better than a 50-50 water/coolant mix with water wetter, which is better than plain old 50-50. The coolant is just used to lower the freezing point, raise the boiling point (not issues in your computer) and prevent corrosion (but the water wetter would take care of this). Water wetter also reduces the water's surface tension. So what I'm asking is if it would be ok to run this system with a bottle of water wetter instead of the green coolant supplied, because I think it would give lower temps and still prevent corrosion just as well. For reference check out this link [url]http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/17.pdf[/url].[/QUOTE] Poisonsnak, Your link DOES prove that water-wetter works by adding it to EITHER plain water OR coolant. The HydroCool needs the coolant. Deviating from this will void your warranty and would ruin your HC system given it time. Now adding water-wetter to the fully recommended amount of HC required coolant and distilled water should be fine. See an earlier posted thread on this topic for proper mixture. Using water-wetter with distilled water alone didn't provide enough protection for the HC's HX and copper block. Besides, the water-wetter's white-paper talks about using plain tap water. Not something we would recommend in any water-cooling product. You may get away with that in a vehicle, but not with copper cold-blocks in this small cooling system. Stev
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
So what is that "special" green coolant? Probably just a solution to make the water more basic. Water wetter does that same thing. I see no reason how it could ruin anything. I have run water wetter with distilled water in 2 seperate systems, one of which had a silver CPU block and copper radiator. No problems.....
Link to comment
Share on other sites

JBP, Did you see the other thread and read the technical information? It explains the functions of the coolant that you can purchase at a local store. From your reply, it seems that you had missed it. Please find the time to look it over. :sunglasse The coolant protects the dis-similar metals and solder joints of the cold-block. ALSO, it lubricates the pump properly to keep the noise levels low. The Bosch pump was not designed for just water-wetter alone. A mixture of 1/3 propylene glycol and a combination of 2/3 distilled water with water-wetter has been tested in our labs. Your link even mentions in the first paragraph to mix water wetter with the coolant. In the HC's case, this is required. The link you had provided speaks of PLAIN WATER. Something we avoid in both electronics water cooling and the automotive cooling realm. Plain water carries other trace metals and various corrosion components. Even the added fluoride in our drinking water has an effect on the metals used in a water cooling system. Using distilled water in automotive applications keeps the life of the HX core and the cooling ports into the engine block. Likewise, the same goes for a water cooling unit for long life use. Again, read the previous threads about coolant. Stev
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stev, You've posted this several times before that Delphi has tested the H200 with the proper mixture and with Water Wetter added, but you didn't mention if your tests showed any improvement in heat transfer/performance. What did your tests reveal?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

morrisgs, The temps didn't improve significantly to brag about. A degree of two, if that, was the benefit in a controlled test. The micro-channels really do all the work in the cooling. The best we had found, [SIZE=5]BUT NOT [/SIZE] recommended is rubbing alcohol. The boiling point and heat transfer is ideal, but the pump will die out in a short time. There are a few all copper home-brewed systems that have done alcohol cooling systems. It's a bit different in the parts and tubing they use. The Superthane that the HC uses can handle it, but again the pump will be toast in a short period of time. :bigeyes: Stev
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am aware that the 'special' green coolant uses propylene glycol....but I dont see how that can help corrosion any more than something like distilled water w/ water wetter. There is nothing you can do to distilled or DI water that can make it less reactive to metals besides making it into a slightly basic solution with something like water wetter...or propylene glycol in the case of the special green coolant used in the hydrocool. The problem with using propylene glycol...or any glycol for that matter is it horrible thermal conductivity, specific heat, and high viscosity. Water has more than twice the thermal conductivity, almost twice the specific heat, and it 40 times less viscous. Given that information using the maximum amount of distilled water will yield the best cooling. With water wetter, you only need about a 3% solution to get effective corrosion protection and make the coolant a high 8 on the pH scale for acid prevention. With a glycol you need something around a 15% solution (varies of course) to get the same results, which will make the cooling solution less thermally conductive, lowers its heat capacity, and increases the solution's viscosity (higher cP = lower flowrates = more stress on the pump). Baffles me why corsair would choose the 2nd option... I can guarantee you though, I will be using distilled water with a few ounces of water wetter....no anti-freeze for me! ;) PS- About the rubbing alcohol being better than water. Thats not very true either. Methanol has about half the thermal conductivity/specific heat. The only advantage it offers is lower viscosity (not much lower than water though) and a very low freezing point. It is only really used by people with active cooling that need coolants able to handle -C temps. Who did all this research anyway? :confused:
Link to comment
Share on other sites

JBP, I think you need to read through the forum a little more :eek: I've followed the H200 since prior to it's release and it's evident that what you call the "Special Green Coolant" is required to keep the bosch pump lubricated and more. Stev even posted on this Thread that: "The coolant protects the dis-similar metals and solder joints of the cold-block. ALSO, it lubricates the pump properly to keep the noise levels low. The Bosch pump was not designed for just water-wetter alone." Just be aware buddy that by running pure distilled water and Water Wetter, you will have voided all warranty, have a noisy system, and you will have a system inop in the near future! :(: Delphi & Corsair have even told us what "Special Green Coolant" to buy for the system to operate properly at our local stores NOT BEARING the Corsair/Delphi name, so they aren't just saying it to make money. Best of luck to ya, and hope you stay up and running :): BUT YOU'VE BEEN WARNED :sigh!:
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The pump is like any other inline pump. It doesnt need lubrication anymore than an eheim 1046/1048.....or hydor. I dont know why so many people use the stuff that comes with the hydrocool. It will clearly hinders performance.....and no my sytem isnt noisey :biggrin: Plus those 'disimilar metals' you talk about are copper aluminum and maybe iron....which If you read my post you would understand it doesnt even matter what metals they are ;) BTW- I have voided my warranty like 5 times over already with mods....so I could care less about using the 'right' water. :sunglasse
Link to comment
Share on other sites

JBP, You had stated that "... PS- About the rubbing alcohol being better than water. That's not very true either. Methanol has about half the thermal conductivity/specific heat. The only advantage it offers is lower viscosity (not much lower than water though) and a very low freezing point. It is only really used by people with active cooling that need coolants able to handle -C temps. Who did all this research anyway? " We are not replacing the alcohol in the HC. We were stating that some OCer's use this in a totally different setup of components in some other methods towards cooling. One prime example would be in a thermal siphon application. You can't get water or coolant to circulate fast enough to change from a liquid to a vapor and back to a vapor. I stated that there are OCer's that use alcohol. NOT rubbing alcohol. Follow the words I carefully wrote. Some people would quickly think rubbing alcohol and run out to their local Wal-Mart/K-mart and pick some up. :eek: Anyways, not to beat an old horse. You have stated that you have voided your warranty. Good luck, and I hope that the Bosch pump holds up for you. We have followed Bosch's specs and what it takes to keep that nice pump happy. The pump's P/N is PAD-0-392-023-000 if it does go on you. BUT, if you want more flow and pump pressure since your into modd'ing the HC, then the Bosch P/N is PAA-0-329-020-064. The pump is longer in depth and pushes nearly twice the flow of the PAD pump. :sunglasse Comparing the Bosch pump to the Eheim is a bad mistake. Both are pumps, but designed and engineering for different applications. The Bosch is for automotive applications that REQUIRES coolant for lubrication. The Eheim is for fish and water; Aquatics. Fish DO NOT live in coolant. :bigeyes: Thus, the Eheim doesn't need the coolant for lubrication. Taking the two pumps apart, you will clearly see how the Bosch pump needs the lubrication for the bearing surfaces to function. Have you ever had glycol between your fingers? It is slippery. Just enough to lubricate the pump. The percentage range of the coolant for best protection of the dis-simular components in the HC is Min. 27%. BUT, the 33% was chosen to be on the safe side of error and no change in thermal performace was noticed (measured). Any level below 27% showed in time black residue in the tubing and on the fitting connections. Cutting in half a cold-block and a HX, there was shown significant damage to both. Thus, the coolant IS required. Stev
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Time to clear up several misconceptions about additives ... 1) Water wetter does not inhibit corrosion, it is mainly to reduce surface tension ... a small amount MAY help heat transfer 2) Water wetter is highly toxic, and it should not be used in a living area 3) Propylene glycol itself does not inhibit corrosion; rather it is the additive package that is part of it when sold as antifreeze that prevents corrosion by controlling pH 4) The propylene glycol adds lubrication to the pump bearings so that it is less noisy and will last longer than with just water 5) Running the pump dry without any fluid will destroy it in about 10 minutes 6) The additive bottle packed with the Hydrocool is filled with Sierra brand PG based antifreeze, available at Wal-Mart, etc. Neither Corsair nor Delphi has anything to hide to force you to buy their product. Other brands of PG based antifreeze should work equally well. 7) The propylene glycol based additive was the most environmentally friendly and safest of those commonly available. The use anything else that may be toxic or hazardous, as suggested by some, is a bad idea at every level. If that extra 1/2 degree of temp is that important, then run plain distilled water and then flush it out and replace on a regular basis. KK
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm using about 33% Prestone, as I'm at a Navy base and obviously we are limited in choices of antifreeze at the local AutoPort. I use a digital temp probe touching the CPU to measure temps. So far, at idle, I see a 1.0-1.5 C increase in CPU temps versus water. I have sometimes seen CPU temps same or 0.5 C less than water! At load, running Memtest or SuperPI or the IL-2 demo, I see stress temps on the CPU maybe 2.5-3.5 C over water temps. Room temps are 18.9-23.0 C so far, so I'm seeing max maybe 31.9-32 C stress temps on the CPU, with water around 28-29.5 C. Now this does depend on the CPU and VCORE, but most CPUs fall in this area. What overclocks am I doing? How about two 2.40Cs at 303 and 304 fsb and a 3.0C and 3.2C at 3.85 gig. I really got no complaints :):. Would I get greedy and lower the amount of Prestone for a 1-2 C reduction and risk corrosion to the radiator or the tiny microchannels of the cooling block :eek:? You will see this happening within two weeks. Uh uh. On the subject of water wetter, for automotive apps it's to prevent formation of bubbles sticking to the coolant chambers of cylinder heads, which will cause a local hot spot. The water wetter is a surfactant that prevents bubbles from forming or sticking to the head. If you honestly expect such extreme temps in the microchannels of the block against the CPU, then maybe it's for you :):.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No stev, you said in tests that "RUBBING" alcohol works best in micro-channel water-blocks because of 'ideal heat transfer'. I am saying that is wrong. Perhaps you mispoke but dont tell people stuff that is incorrect, then try to cover for it! Once again....who did these 'controlled tests'?? Thanks for the suggestion of the pump. I was looking for more flow and I like this bosch pump already. :D: Fish tank not having coolant eh? Guess we must be thinking about two different kinds of fish tanks because the kind I am thinking about have water...which is the best coolant for water-cooled systems. The Bosch pump is nothing special. It is a closed impeller water pump. It will benefit from the lubrication of water wetter as much as anti-freeze. Ever felt water wetter? Yea, its very slippery as well. In fact, glycol reduces friction only marginally more than water wetter. Your explanation of why so much 'coolant' is used just proves my point even more.....you only need 3% water wetter to get the same results as 33% anti-freeze or 'coolant'. @"kk" Yes, water wetter does inhibit corrosion. It raises the pH of water above 7 with a very small amount of the fluid which will prevent, but not stop all corrosion. Also, it will NOT help heat transfer at all, and neither will anti-freeze...the more you use of each the more performance will drop. As for water wetter being toxic. Well, drinking down a bottle of anti-freeze aint exactly healthy either. It is toxic also. But since people dont drink the fluid in their computers, who cares if it is toxic? Hell Tilex is toxic....but you dont see me storing it in a remote location away from my 'living areas'. Not to sure what ya cleared up mate! :confused: I am aware the using water wetter instead of the anti-freeze wont [i]drastically[/i] improve performance...but that is like saying, "well why dont we just use an aluminum water block instead of copper....its only a few degrees." Anways, I am tired of argueing and just want people to be aware of the hard facts and not take "your warranty will be voided" threats so seriosuly! :cool: Again no offense if I stepped on anyone's toes!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='JBP']@"kk" Yes, water wetter does inhibit corrosion. It raises the pH of water above 7 with a very small amount of the fluid which will prevent, but not stop all corrosion. Also, it will NOT help heat transfer at all, and neither will anti-freeze...the more you use of each the more performance will drop. As for water wetter being toxic. Well, drinking down a bottle of anti-freeze aint exactly healthy either. It is toxic also. But since people dont drink the fluid in their computers, who cares if it is toxic? Hell Tilex is toxic....but you dont see me storing it in a remote location away from my 'living areas'. Not to sure what ya cleared up mate! :confused: [/QUOTE] Things were cleared up for those willing to think things through ... Water wetter, glycols, etc. do have a lower specific heat than water ... so it's a given that 100% water is the better heat transfer medium. Why a small amount of water wetter improves typical, net heat transfer is that it ensures that the working fluid is all liquid without gas bubbles captured in it. In an engine, gas bubbles will be from localized hots spots boiling. In "room temp" applications, such as cpu cooling, water wetter reduces trapped air bubbles that get mixed back in as the liquid returns to the reservoir. No one is advocating drinking the stuff, obviously. Not even considering spills and leaks, the working fluid does slowly outgas and enter the room air environment. More volitile compounds and mixes such as alcohols, water wetter, etc. outgas much quicker and breathing them is not good ... and saying that is not some unlikely event ... it will happen ... using volitile liquid mixes HAVE given people headaches and nausea. If that hasn't happened to you, then consider yourself lucky. If you still choose to play mad scientist, it's one thing to put yourself in harm's way, but if you have friends, family, children, or pets who share your space, then not being more cautious is just damn irresponsible! KK
Link to comment
Share on other sites

For one, the water is never going to get to boiling temps....so why that would even matter is beyond me. Second, after a few days all the bubbles will have worked their way out of circulation (even the micro ones) and therefore water wetter has no further effect on heat transfer. We are talking computers here mate, not engines.....reading water wetter info from a website doesnt help to prove your point ;): Maybe you should think it through! :p: Another point. With a 3% solution of water wetter in water....I doubt barely any vapors will be emmited. Windex is probably releases probably 5x the vapors water wetter does in such a dilute solution...I feel safe around Windex :) That is not to mention the system will be sealed so vapor cant even escape. :D:
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='JBP']For one, the water is never going to get to boiling temps....so why that would even matter is beyond me. Second, after a few days all the bubbles will have worked their way out of circulation (even the micro ones) and therefore water wetter has no further effect on heat transfer. We are talking computers here mate, not engines.....reading water wetter info from a website doesnt help to prove your point ;): Maybe you should think it through! :p: Another point. With a 3% solution of water wetter in water....I doubt barely any vapors will be emmited. Windex is probably releases probably 5x the vapors water wetter does in such a dilute solution...I feel safe around Windex :) That is not to mention the system will be sealed so vapor cant even escape. :D:[/QUOTE] Did you realize that water does not need to reach boiling temps to evaporate? Same for volitile liquids such as water wetter ... it's called vapor pressure ... they have high vapor pressures and will outgas at room temps and pressures in a short period of time. A water cooling system is not hermetically sealed ... it will lose liquid over a period of time. Breathing Windex fumes over time won't improve your health or longevity either. It's obvious you're going to do as you please ... I'm belaboring my counter-point to advise others not to blindly jump on the water-wetter (or rubbing alcohol or washer fluid or windex) band-wagon. KK
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You serious? This arguement is silly and you know it. The amount of evaportation and liquid loss are numbers so small they will have no effect on performance and definetly no effect on someones health. Think about. A 3% solution of distilled water in a relatively sealed environment. It isnt 100% sealed but the leaked amounts will have no consequence. Its just like in math...there are certain things that have an actual value, but it is so darn small we just call it zero! Band-wagon you say? I wouldnt call better performance through research "band-wagon" jumping. I call it practical thought process and application. How are we supposed to ever improve anything if everyone just says....meh....anti-freeze is the ONLY viable option, end of story. I dont get it?? :confused: :confused:
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
[quote name='JBP']You serious? This arguement is silly and you know it. The amount of evaportation and liquid loss are numbers so small they will have no effect on performance and definetly no effect on someones health. Think about. A 3% solution of distilled water in a relatively sealed environment. It isnt 100% sealed but the leaked amounts will have no consequence. Its just like in math...there are certain things that have an actual value, but it is so darn small we just call it zero! Band-wagon you say? I wouldnt call better performance through research "band-wagon" jumping. I call it practical thought process and application. How are we supposed to ever improve anything if everyone just says....meh....anti-freeze is the ONLY viable option, end of story. I dont get it?? :confused: :confused:[/QUOTE] While I can't disagree with your enthusiasm to experiment, I, myself personally made the decision to ship the Hydrocool with the most friendly / safe additive we could find. Since I could not account for those less careful or knowledgeable than yourself, I had to take the safest path possible. There are many complex issues beyond a simple reply here. If I sound "silly" or whatever, is was my responsibility to be conservative on the fluid use, that was 100% my choice and may come across as "less than perfect". I am the design engineer who released the HC200. It was solely my choice on additive! I've did have a few minor design regrets that did not make it to the final HC200 product as I had hoped ... but we wanted to introduce a solid, well-built product that was affordable ... I believe we delivered. Also, we have so many things on the back burner ... but I will emphatically support only what is the safe and sound! I admit that I am frustrated by some obvious criticisms since voiced ... I have studied all the feedback, understanding most "misses" on the HC200 ... If we had done all things possible at that time, it may have doubled the cost ... but we recognize all the concerns, we've learned! We have another entire new generation of coldplates and pumps forthcoming ... every good feedback heard has been considered in the next version of the Hydrocool! GPU and Northbridge cooling are part of that picture as well. Do note that we want to be as certain as possible all parts and systems will be better and excel in performance. Corsair will detail this further when the time is right. KK
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...