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Don't want to OC, want 800MHz


mgholley

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So I've seen a few threads here and on other sites regarding OC of the Corsair Dominator Memory on the MSI 975X Platinum PowerUp. I'm not interested in OC'ing, I just want my memory to run at the speeds advertised. (i.e., if the web site selling it states it to be 800MHz, then when I plug it into my MB it should post stating 800MHz instead of 667 or lower.) I don't like messing with BIOS b/c frankly, I don't really understand it all. So...I am looking for a little assistance in the actual configuration of the BIOS...but I am also looking to figure out why my system recently started giving me problems. I am running the Memtest86 as I write this to test each module individually, but I am hoping that it is a configuration issue and not a hardware problem.

 

First off, I should mention that I purchased my memory in two stages, so I have two pairs of modules. 1 is XMS6404v1.2 (2x1GB) and the other is XMS6404v2.1 (2x1GB). This may or may not be the root of my problems, but I thought i'd mention it in case that is important.

 

So, I have a Core 2 Duo 2.4GHz proc. I don't understand the FSB ratio's (or why I have to mess with this...too much confusion in modern computer building if you ask me). I know how to manually configure the memory settings (i.e. set the FSB ratio to 1:1 or 1:5, etc., set the CAS latency and other "timings".) I have no idea what they mean. I only adjust them b/c every "support" page recommends setting the timings correctly. My understanding is that it is best to have the FSB to memory ratio set to 1:1 to get the cleanest/best performance from my machine. My crude understanding is that I have to multiply the FSB (default of 266) times the ratio (1:1 is best, correct?) times 2 (DDR2). So, in order to get proper performance and a reported 800MHz rating from the memory, I have to bump the FSB up to 400 (I will probably need to increase the CPU voltage as well to get it the juice it needs to go up to 400MHz FSB?!?)

 

I will overclock if it is required to make the memory work as advertised (again, why it doesn't just perform this way out of the box with "default settings" I can't imagine...its like everyone is discouraging home builds and pushing us back to retail so that we get what's advertised), but I don't really want to spend money on more cooling units, heatsyncs, fans. I have the OEM fan on the proc, and two 120mm fans in the case (as well as the PSU fan).

 

As I finish writing this, I should mention that the system is having problems booting with the v1.2 modules. No POST of any kind...the system just runs for 30 secs and then resets itself, cycling this a dozen times before I shut it down. I have tried with each module separately and with them running as a pair. (on the MSI board, it is slot 1 and slot 3, one green and one orange) In both instances, the system refuses to boot. However, if I place the v2.1 modules in the primary slots (1+3) and the v1.2 modules in the secondary slots (2+4), I get a clean post, 4GB of RAM reported (667MHz) and the system runs stable. Regardless if I use just the v2.1 modules or both, the annoying item in the BIOS is that in the Cell Menu it reports a DRAM clock of 667. This is what makes me feel like either 1) The memory isn't as advertised or 2) There is something faulty with the MB, the BIOS, or it isn't as advertised. Shouldn't the DRAM clock only be 1 thing (i.e. 800MHz) or shouldn't I be able to modify the DRAM clock instead of messing with FSB and other things? Additionally, despite setting ECC to on in the BIOS, memtest reports it as disabled.

 

If someone could point me to a Dummies Guide to OC'ing, that would be great. I guess if I understand FSB, ratios, and why I would/should want to mess with those I may better understand my situation. If anyone can provide insight as to why the v1.2 modules might have problems where as the v2.1 do not, that would be better. (Is it RMA time?) Finally, a detailed explanation on how to configure each of the settings specific to the MSI BIOS would be awesome. Thanks.

 

Lastly, I am willing to replace the MB if it makes sense. I'm not one to usually replace/upgrade componenents in a system, I just like to build a new one every few years from the ground up (except maybe harddrives :) ). What would be the best MB to take advantage of the processor,RAM & PSU I've already purchased?

 

-Michael

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In your situation, you need to realize that when you populate all four DRAM slots, you change the dynamics of the system. The on motherboard memory controller has to now work harder to access and load four slots as opposed to two. The controller is not fast enough to do this at the same speeds as when you had two slots populated. You need to drop the speed of the DRAM to relate to the now slower memory controller.

 

This characteristic is across the board for both Intel and AMD and is a characteristic of the on motherboard (Intel) and on CPU (AMD) memory controller, not the DRAM.

 

When you overclock the system, you create a relation of ratios between the CPU <--> Memory Controller <--> DRAM and this allows you to regain some if not all of your DRAM bandwidth loss. Other than that, the only advice I can give you is to move to 2 sticks of 2048 6400 DRAM and then you can reach your goal of 800Mhz DRAM with 4GB on a non-overclocked system.

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DerekT,

Thanks for your speedy reply. I edited my original message, so there may be more information than when you first looked at my question. I'm also beginning to suspect that my v1.2 modules are either bad or somehow rated differently than my v2.1 modules. I always hate it when hardware manufacturers release v2 of something. As far as I'm concerned its a new model number and should be labeled as such. Especially if it uses different components that could throw everything out of whack. My system/MB might serve as an example as why this is a bad idea. (Or I may just need to RMA). I accept that 4 sticks instead of 2 cause more work on the system, I guess I just don't understand the explanation. More importantly, I guess I'm still looking for the right way to configure my BIOS to work effectively with the hardware I do have. The last time I built a system (4 years ago maybe?) there wasn't nearly the headache there is today in configuring BIOS. Most of what you had to worry about was ever increasing size hard drives and making sure that your video card didn't collide with other memory. Now I feel like I've bought all the parts for an entry level race car, but because of my BIOS ignorance I'm driving it around like a minivan.

 

Could you recommend another MB ($150 or less possibly :sigh!:) which would be better with the rest of my hardware? Again, I'm only interested in OC'ing where it won't create too much heat...I'd much rather have a MB which allows things to run as advertised in stock configuration. It may, however, be my limited understanding of FSB, ratios, etc... that has me in this pickle. My crude understanding was that if you buy a MB with an 800MHz FSB, you buy RAM to match, and whatever proc will fit on the board. Everything should then run at the 800MHz speed. If this assumption is way off, let me know. I guess I was hoping to not spend hours seaching Tom's Hardware or some other site for details on how to build systems and OC, but it may end up requiring that. I'm not a gamer, just someone who does lots of video encoding/decoding and want's the most for the money already spent.

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XMS6404v2.1 are 6400C4 modules based on Elpida DRAM.

XMS6404v1.2 are also 6400C4 modules based on Micron DRAM.

 

Insert the Version 2.1 modules in your board. Enter the BIOS and set the voltage to 2.1v. Shut down. Remove the 2.1 modules and insert the 1.2 modules.

 

Do you gain boot?

 

Keep in mind, that when you buy Enthusiast parts, you will need to set values as these parts are more advanced than the standard parts.

 

This C4 800Mhz DRAM requires more volts than standard DRAM. They also have lower tolerances when fitted with other fabricated modules.

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With all other values set to default, and memory set to 2.1v 4-4-4-12, the v1.2 modules do not boot the machine. It runs for 30 secs and then reboots itself. Unfortunately, I do not have the advanced diagnostics cable that originally shipped with the board (I got an open box from newegg), but since we know its the RAM, I didn't think anything else really mattered. Do I need to RMA this pair? I have heard that the Micron chipset is better...but...I guess it would probably be better to have them all matching, eh?

 

As I research this more and more, and read more threads on the MSI Forums, it seems like the board really annoyed quite a few users since inception with faulty BIOS. Most of the posting, however, rolls from late 2006 to mid 2007. When manufacturers release a new MB every week, ADD runs rampant among those who would support us. :) I may just end up getting a new board. I would appreciate a rec on a board that makes sense with my other current equipment, I'm not interested in piecemeal upgrade of this thing over time. I'll build a complete new one when the time comes.

 

Again, thanks for your speedy responses and very helpful information.

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The individual v1.2 modules will not let the machine boot when I attempted to test them alone. It seems really odd that the only way I can "use" the v1.2 modules is when they are in the "secondary" position (i.e. one in channel A Dimm 2 and one in Channel B Dimm 4). I have tried a few variations (i.e. everything to default, everything to specific timings, etc.) Its like when I got the new modules (I'm assuming they were the v2.1...but I guess its possible that Newegg shipped me the v1.2 six months after shipping the v2.1) they suddenly made the others obsolete. Should I do a hard reset of the MB BIOS (i.e. use the battery associated "jumper" to clear BIOS settings?).
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Enter BIOS and set to these values:

 

DRAM Voltage = 2.1V

MCH Voltage = 1.45v

Timings of 5-5-5-15

Command Rate of 2T

 

If the version 1.2 pass in the second set of slots. (2 & 4) then test the modules singularly in Channel A, DIMM 2. Then use one of the other sticks v2.1 and test all four DRAM slots singularly.

 

Then test with v2.1 in Slots 1 & 3 and the v1.2 in Slots 2 & 4 with these settings. Keep in mind that version 1.xx needs 2.2v and version 2.xx needs 2.1v so this can definitely be a problem and especially so with the older i975 chipset.

 

Results?

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  • Corsair Employees
You should not mix memory with that MB, and I am sorry but if you want to use 4 modules I would suggest using our QuadX Kits but it would be best to use Twin2x4096-6400C5DHX if you want 4 Gig of memory.
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DerekT,

Sorry..busy weekend. I will run the further tests you recommend tonight. I'm not sure I can change the Command Rate...at least, its not on the "Cell Menu" of my current BIOS. Looks like it will take awhile to run all those iterations, but once I do....I'm wondering if there is a "solution" in site. The RAM might be "good" but not useable by me. To which I say BOO.

 

 

RamGuy,

I purchased the RAM from Newegg...same product ID. It just goes to show that selling two DIFFERENT sets of RAM with such a similar product number is a bad idea. They are different products but to most people they appear the same. I don't know for a fact that Newegg is the largest reseller of your memory, but I think it would be prudent for Corsair to use different models for different RAM in the future, so that situations like this could be avoided. People buying RAM from online sellers have no way of knowing if they are buying v1.2 or v2.1 AND they would have no reason to suspect differences. Just a thought. Also, how do you propose to resolve my issue? CAN Corsair ship v1.2 RAM out to match my older set or WOULD they ship me newer RAM to match my v2.1? Have they moved on to verson v3.2 and I'm SoL?

If Newegg should have identified this memory as different than the memeory I bought six months prior, then I will get on their case and make them sort things out. But, it might be prudent for Corsair to stop selling 2 different products with the same model# on the box. It means we end up giving our money to shipping companies and creating unsatisified/confused customers who take their business elsewhere.

 

I'll ask again as this is my other option. Can either of you recommend a board (or line/series, etc..) which WILL be able to utilize my "mix'n'match" RAM? Since I've spent more for this RAM than the MB at this point, it seems like the prudent thing to invest in....instead of another set of RAM which may or may not actually be the same product as what I've purchased.

 

My frustration does not reflect upon either of you. Your assistance and insight is appreciated. But someone, in my opinion, dropped the ball here, either at Newegg or at Corsair. Hell, I can't even find my memory on the Corsair product page (http://www.corsairmicro.com/products/dominator.aspx) for detailed information. Its like it didn't exist. Only after hunting around and reading tons of customer reviews did I discover that a potential problem could surface from different versions. If matching different versions of a product is a problem, then warnings about such an event should clearly be stated by the manufacturer on the product page and by the vendor as well. It should also say it on the "box". I bought high performance memory at a premium price so that I WOULDN'T have to spend hours messing with the BIOS to get a stable product running as advertised. Pass that on to the powers that be, please, and maybe they will stop selling different products under the same model number. Thanks...both for your help and patience.

 

-Michael

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  • Corsair Employees

I am sorry but it is not like it used to be and you should not mix memory. You just build the system with the memory you plan on using and if you want to use 4 modules you should be using our quad kits.

Mixing memory is hit and miss and with 4 modules on this MB I would suggest setting the memory frequency at DDR800 or DDR667 depending on the CPU FSB.

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RAM GUY,

You seem to be missing the point here. I DIDN'T mix memory, Corsair did when they sold me two different products with the same model number. You stated that it "isn't like it used to be". By this I assume you mean that memory is no longer simply a number of sticks with a number of MB/GB game.

 

But it also seems like your implying that Corsair is no longer interested in full disclosure to the customer on the content of its products...buying RAM is like reaching into a barrel of lobsters...sometimes you get good ones and sometimes you get small ones missing a claw. Or..perhaps you're suggesting that the end game for Corsair is to lure customers in with high performance "first generation" products and then substitute inferior parts down the road once volume sales have commenced.

 

If I buy a Mustang at the beginning of 2007, I expect it to have a certain amount of HP, torque, MPG and the like. If I liked it so much, I should be able to go and buy another one at the end of 2007 that matches the first one. I don't expect to see a taurus engine under the hood with everything else the same.

 

Since I can probably assume that you are not just one guy who feels really generous and likes writing 64,000+ messages to a board, could I as a favor. As the "help desk" front to Corsair, could you please forward this case on to a manager/supervisor who has a better response than "spend more money". I don't know too many people who would find flaw with my argument that "Same Product Number" should equal "Same Product". Unless you just don't want customers recommending your product or coming back to buy more...

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  • Corsair Employees
You seem to be missing the point here. I DIDN'T mix memory, Corsair did when they sold me two different products with the same model number. You stated that it "isn't like it used to be". By this I assume you mean that memory is no longer simply a number of sticks with a number of MB/GB game.

I am sorry but that would be mixing memory if you buy tow sets of memory they may or may not work together it is as I said hit and miss and we can only guarantee 4 up with our quad kits of memory.

And I am sorry there is no choice I would ask the reseller if they will let you send back what you just purchased and I would suggest replacing what you have now with a set of Twin2x4096-8500C5DF modules for best performance.

 

You can try 4 modules that are not matched but I would suggest setting the memory frequency at DDR667 or DDR800 depending on the CPU FSB.

And you are welcome to call and ask for a supervisor and I will be happy to tell you the same as was stated here. 800-205-7657 after 9:30 AM tomorrow morning.

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DerekT,

Both you and Ram Guy mention setting my memory to DDR2 667 or DDR2 800. In my BIOS that doesn't appear to be an option. Memory Frequency gets reported to me...but the only memory options I can set are the FSB & Memory Clock Ratio (I've been setting this as 1:1) the Memory Voltage, and the Memory Function Control (Whose submenu items include the 4 classic timing options). I'm guessing that you mean alter my clock ratio..but..I don't know for certain. Could you please advise. Thanks.

Download memtest from Here and extract the ISO image. Burn the ISO image to an CD-ROM disk.

Download CPU-z from Here

 

Enter your BIOS:

 

Advanced BIOS Features

 

Cell Menu

CPU FSB Frequency = 266Mhz

FSB and Memory Clock Ratio = 1 : 1.3

Memory Voltage = 2.1V

Memory Function Control

CAS Latency = 4

DRAM RAS# to CAS# Delay = 4

DRAM RAS# Precharge = 4

Precharge Delay = 12

Boot to the Memtest CD and allow for two full passes. Please post screen shots of your CPU/Memory/SPD tabs after the Memtest.

 

"Same Product Number" should equal "Same Product".

 

Only if the version is also the same integer. Please keep in mind that the versions of the products change, and when the version change is a complete integer ie. 1.xx --> 2.xx, then the DRAM is different. This naming convention applies to both hardware and software.

 

As well, your MSI board does not contain the MCH/Northbridge voltage setting, and this setting helps to allow a four DRAM slot population compatibility, as even with 4 of the identical DRAM, there needs to be an increase of the Northbrige voltage. You can not do this, and you may wish to contact MSI and ask them why they left out this VERY important feature.

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DerekT,

Here are the screen shots you requested. I had set the CPU FSB to 350as before and got some screwy results..sometimes it would drop down to a x6 multiplier, and other times it would stay up at the x9. Is that a bug in CPU-Z or something with my hardware? I didn't think a CPU could change on the fly like that. Anyway....it was stable at 266 for awhile, and the memory settings were the same regardless. So this is the setting where I'm going to try and run it for awhile to test for stability. At 350 CPU FSB, the only memory ratios that would work were 1:1 and 1:1.25. 1:1.33 would work when the CPU FSB was set to 266-320 range. All of these tests/results ONLY work with the v2.1 RAM. I have never been able to get the machine to boot again with the v1.2 RAM, either single or dual channel loads. I can't say when this became an issue, but I can tell you that the v1.2 RAM was in the "primary" slot from DEC'06 until about a month ago. I added the v2.1 RAM in JULY/AUG '07 to bump up to 4GBs. It wasn't oc'd at the time, everything was running with "auto" or "default" settings until last month.

 

Is it better to have 1:1 clock ratio while attemting to OC the processor, or is it better to let the BIOS run with a default to get as close to 800 as possible? Is setting the ratio greater than 1:1 one "type" of oc'ing the memory? (The other 'types' being increased voltage and/or lowering the timings?) Many forum posts seem to imply that keeping a 1:1 is best...but I have yet to hear an "official" position on this. Or is it that this "truth" varies on the hardware...and you just have to test each system uniqeuly to get the best performance? How can you tell when the memory is running at "optimal" levels? Is there a single or pair of numbers that are good indicators (i.e...when the DRAM Frequency is at its highest?) (With CPU..its kinda easy...the higher the Core Speed..they more performance you get).

 

-Michael

Memory.jpg.baed853dfeb403263e5958695c1be4b2.jpg

SPD.jpg.e0ee7631363b6874bb95538721954dde.jpg

CPU1.jpg.ba923cdbbe9856fe272e6fb20bbc3d55.jpg

CPU2.jpg.111e6f264b13b32b97b3cc6495bd1542.jpg

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I had set the CPU FSB to 350as before and got some screwy results..sometimes it would drop down to a x6 multiplier, and other times it would stay up at the x9. Is that a bug in CPU-Z or something with my hardware? I didn't think a CPU could change on the fly like that.

 

Intel and AMD Processors for some time now have carried a technological enhancement called "Multiple VID". Multiple VID (Voltage IDentification)is a Code Set Instruction for raising and lowering Processor Core Voltages [utilizing a 6-bit digital-to-analog converter (DAC) for Intel and a 5-bit DAC for AMD] housed in the CPU. This DAC uses a VID-code provided by the CPU to program the desired CPU core voltage. Thus the regulated output voltage can be dynamically adjusted by changing the VID-code "on the fly" and giving a "boost' to the core voltage when needed or dropping it when not needed. This helps to keep the processor cooler as lower voltages usually equal lower processor operating temperatures. Another characteristic of this ability is to lower the CPU multiplier in idle or minimal use times.

 

 

Anyway....it was stable at 266 for awhile, and the memory settings were the same regardless. So this is the setting where I'm going to try and run it for awhile to test for stability. At 350 CPU FSB, the only memory ratios that would work were 1:1 and 1:1.25. 1:1.33 would work when the CPU FSB was set to 266-320 range. All of these tests/results ONLY work with the v2.1 RAM. I have never been able to get the machine to boot again with the v1.2 RAM, either single or dual channel loads. I can't say when this became an issue, but I can tell you that the v1.2 RAM was in the "primary" slot from DEC'06 until about a month ago. I added the v2.1 RAM in JULY/AUG '07 to bump up to 4GBs. It wasn't oc'd at the time, everything was running with "auto" or "default" settings until last month.

 

When you populate all four DRAM slots, you change the dynamics of the hardware operation. The MCH/Northbridge must now work harder to access and load DATA. You added to this issue, the Micron IC mismatched with the Promos IC and these two different versions have far different characteristics and damage can occur. Damage that is cumulative and degenerative and doubly so when the system is overclocked. The overclock can help the MCH/Northbridge to gain an ability to relate via ratio to the CPU <--> DRAM. However, the different ICs can bring about the degenerative issues. I have seen DRAM slots become non working, motherboard memory controllers become wonky or non working. Yours seems to be a bit wonky now and will not accept the Microns.

 

Is it better to have 1:1 clock ratio while attemting to OC the processor, or is it better to let the BIOS run with a default to get as close to 800 as possible? Is setting the ratio greater than 1:1 one "type" of oc'ing the memory?

 

The ratio is not all that important when the CPU is not bandwidth saturated. It mostly becomes merely theoretical maximums. This is the case with a Dual Core processor. There is just not enough need for the extra bandwidth on the DRAM side. However, if you make use of a Quad Core, then there are times when the CPU is bandwidth saturated due to the lack of cache data sharing between the two sets of cores, thus leading to a multiplicity of identical data residing in both caches. This situation is helped along when the DRAM is running faster than the CPU.

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Along those lines, I have heard that some newer chipsets actually separate the RAM bus from the Processor bus. If this is true, would one of those be better suited to running "mixed" RAM as they might be less likely to underpower or have bandwidth issues/conflicts? Or is that a completely different issue which wouldn't help me in this situation that only confuses the matter?

 

Seems like I have my answer one way or the other...I need to have a matching set (4x1GB kit, or better 2x2GBkit) if I want to run reliably. Other MBs might let me get away with the two pairs I have right now...but there are no guarantees. I just have my expectations set too high...

 

Thanks for all the info guys...

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Along those lines, I have heard that some newer chipsets actually separate the RAM bus from the Processor bus. If this is true, would one of those be better suited to running "mixed" RAM as they might be less likely to underpower or have bandwidth issues/conflicts? Or is that a completely different issue which wouldn't help me in this situation that only confuses the matter?

 

Seems like I have my answer one way or the other...I need to have a matching set (4x1GB kit, or better 2x2GBkit) if I want to run reliably. Other MBs might let me get away with the two pairs I have right now...but there are no guarantees. I just have my expectations set too high.

 

The Nvidia chipsets have a data stream that allows you the choice of linking or unlinking your DRAM speed from the processor. This does not change the effect of population four DRAM slots vs two DRAM slots. This characteristic, effect if you will, is across the board (no pun intended :p: ) with both Intel chipset or AMD chipsets. Mixing and Matching also effects these chipsets in the same way...

 

I would personally go with 2 X 2048MB. A far easier solution and considering the dramatic drop in DRAM prices in the last six months, it is financially the best move as well.

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FYI Version # has nothing to do with WHEN they were made, as multiple versions are made at the same time. You won't see the version # listed anywhere online because it has nothing to do with the performance of the part. In the DDR2/DDR3 series of the XMS line, the part # / version # combo is indicative of what IC is used. This info is listed in the Enthusiasts Only sub-forum as a sticky.

 

Ultimately it's the MEMORY CONTROLLERS that now have issues with mixing ICs. Why the ones in days gone past didn't mind as much I don't know. Probably comes down to slower speeds, more basic designs, etc.

 

Since it seems that the v1.2 pair isn't working per specs, I'd contact Corsair directly (phone as RG mentioned earlier would be what I'd recommend as well) and explain that they don't work (point them to this thread, should be enough info for them), and see if they can replace them with a specific version (i.e. v2.1), or replace all 4 with a QUAD pack, or better yet, a Twin2X4096 pack. Can't hurt to ask!

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If there isn't a performance issue between versions, then why do so many people seem to foam at the mouth for the v1.2 (Micron D9 chipsets). I get the impression that they do a better job of overclocking at higer numbers, but this only comes from the posts I read in a few other forums. If Corsair tests all the hardware variations to the same standard, and they all perform even at extreme oc'ing on all the "certified" motherboards, than I will just ignore the people that say "make sure to get Micron D9s". I'd be happy with the 4x1GB or 2x2GB that are sold to work together.

 

I do not consider myself an Enthusiast anymore, I was simply enthusiastic about my system performing at its best. Computer manufactures seem to have taken a page from the book of hot dog sellers anyway. The number of hot dogs in a pack (CPU bandwidth) by design rarely match the number of hot dog buns in a pack (Memory bandwidth) and we have to keep buying more of one or the other to try and reach an equal number that actually makes sense and finishes at the same time. The price we pay for cheaper hardware I guess. However, my experience seems to be an oft-repeated way of life for folks buying high-end RAM. I guess the manufacturers cover their butts with the fine print, but I'm pretty certain it would make more sense to sell each hardware iteration with a different part number. It seems a lot more people might be aware that a compatability issue could exist if the part numbers didn't match.

 

I'll contact support and cross my fingers. In the meantime, I'll see if I can find a friend with a compat. MB that can test them for me. If they're good, I'll just have to see if a neighbor's kid wants them in exchange for mowing my lawn or something. :)

 

Thanks again.

 

-Michael

 

P.S. I'll try one last time.....could anyone suggest a good hardcopy book or PDF document which discusses hardware issues such as this so that I can be fully informed the next time I try to the D-I-Y method? Thanks.

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If there isn't a performance issue between versions, then why do so many people seem to foam at the mouth for the v1.2 (Micron D9 chipsets). I get the impression that they do a better job of overclocking at higer numbers
All TWIN2X2048-6400C4s meet the specs that Corsair guarantees them at. OCing is something that Corsair doesn't guarantee, and doesn't test for. Enthusiasts, through trial and error, figure out what has the highest potential to OC the best. Yes, Micron D9s have such a reputation, but again, it's POTENTIAL, not guaranteed.
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