Why advertise O/C on Dominator Ram???

[KentuckyRanger]

Why is it that all the manufacturers tout our hardware is the most overclockable in the industry!

Just to have tech support tell you never go over the rated settings?

This in my Mind is false advertising.

It's not that I want to push the system I built to its limits but why do Companies like EVGA, nVidia and Corsair offer up products that are meant to be tinkered with then tell you not to exceed factory specs.

Take for instance the RAM I chose, or what I concidered a good chioce after researching and reading a Boat load of articles only Clocks to what Corsair says it will do which is 1066MHz FSB, 533MHz actualy.

I remember asking tech support what Timmings I shoud use for O/C and they said 5,5,5,15 2T 2.1V and no more which gives me 1066MHz but I thought this RAM was so overclockable...

The same goes for the CPU, Intel's QX6800.

Everyone, including Intel touts how overclockable it is but says never set it over the 2.93 1066MHz FSB Clock speeds.

I have successfully O/C it to 3.2 at 12X but the FSB stays at 1066MHz

 

Then there's nVidia's 680i and Asus Striker series of M/B's that give so much flexibility in O/C but goes crazy when Timmings and Voltages are changed in the least. My nVidia 680i Board says it supports up to 1333FSB but when any changes are made to the CPU or RAM things go crazy. I bumped the Timmings up to 1070FSB on both and it drove the M/B out of its Mind.

I know that Intel doesn't really advertize extreme O/C but Corsair does and is partnered with nVidia so if the RAM is already rated at 1066MHz FSB then wouldn't the logical step as to O/C be to raise the FSB over 1066MHz?

When I enable nVidias O/C in the BIOS to its minimum settings the FSB is around 800MHz and doesn't get up to 1066MHz untill I set it at around 5% O/C. How can the rated FSB be considered O/C?

Am I missing something here?

I'll be the first to admit I'm a Babe in the Woods when it comes to O/Cing but I wasn't born Yesterday and I do have a strong background in Computer electronics.

 

If someone could explain this mystery to me I'd apreciate it... :roll:

[bigbuck08]

For Corsair atleast, they cannot tell you how to overclock as then they can be held liable for doing so. I just assume this is how it goes with other companys as well. That is why the Ram Guy doesnt say anything aobut overclocking, just general advice. If, Corsair for instance, told you how to overclock that would give you 1200Mhz and really tight timings and it burnt up your RAM, wouldnt you be a bit ticked at them? That could result in a legal issue and it just goes downhill from there. I believe all tech support for all companys are given strict instructions not to tell anyone how to OC. I think they can give general advice on the subject but not specific info. I may be wrong but thats just how I think it goes. If I said anything to offend you I am sorry, just stating what I think. In the end companys just dont want to be held liable.

[KentuckyRanger]

I understand what you're saying, it just doesn't make much sense. I know it would be insane for a Co like Corsair to give O/C advice just to have it blow up in their Face.

 

But it's like offering someone a Cobra Mustang that has a limit Chip in it.

Ford knows their Mustang can run 130mph but, we're going to limit it to 80mph and void the warranty if you try anything to make it go any faster.

Then advertize it running 130mph on a racetrack with rock music playing in the background.

You go oh cool! Run out and buy one, then find out you can't outrun a Schooll Bus...

After a while you decide to tinker with it not knowing just how far to push it. You go all out and blow it up at the Track pushing 180mph and now you're left with a hunk of Junk.

 

This actualy happened to me when I purchased a 96 Thunderbird, LOL!

Not the blowing up part but the limit Chip, uggg.

 

I guess I just got caught up in the O/C hype from Corsair and nVidia.

In my Mind Corsair was misleading in O/C because like I stated in the original post, how can RAM rated at 1066MHz FSB be considered overclocked at 1066MHz?

What they should have done is advertised the Dominator at say 800MHz, then let everyone feel better when they got it up to 1066MHz.

I know there's headroom and if you really wanted to tinker you could probably get it up to 1200 with the right cooling but don't make things sound better than they are.

In other Words, don't sell something for what it's not.

Having knowledge in computer electronics I wasn't surprized with the fact that this new DDR2 RAM was actualy running at 533MHz but allot of People got hurt feelings when they found out.

Then angry consumers had to have the whole dual Chanel thing explained to them, leaving them too tired to fight about it anymore and vowing to never buy from so and so again.

Consumers hate it when they feel duped and like Lemings, they follow everyone else, somewhere else.

 

No, I'm not trashing Corsair. As for the RAM I have it's great and I never expected anything over 1066MHz.

But it would have been nice to tweek it up a notch or Two without worrying about it fizzing out in a puff of smoke.

What got me was when I put this thing together and after seeing SLI memory detected and the O/C settings opened up, I figured WOW!

I was careful not to push it all the way but when I kept re-booting and seeing such an insignificant increase I went all the way to MAX O/C, woo hoo!

Well, what I saw was it just took the RAM and CPU up to their respective rated speeds...

 

Don't get me wrong, I love my Rig and all the hardware in it.

It runs great and I have been blown away by its performance. I just don't like it when I'm lead to believe that there's more there than actually is.

 

So no one thinks I'm being spoiled about this whole thing here's what I wanted as far as O/C goes.

I wanted and got 3.2GHz out of the QX6800 CPU.

I wanted to get around 1080MHz out of the RAM FSB as well as boost the Timmings a little but I'm stuck at 1066MHz.

When I say stuck I don't mean that 1066MHz is bad, it's great!

It's just not O/C if you're running at the rated speed.

I figured I'd have to wait out for more of a selection in the DDR3 1333MHz Ram department so trust me, I never figured DDR2 would get anywhere close to 1333MHz FSB.

I saw this whole O/C craze as an oprotunity to really build a good, reliable, as well as stable Rig. I never saw it as a way to get uber performance out of 3 Year old hardware.

 

Everyone makes out like this O/C thing is just so cool and it is if you keep controll of your urges to make things scream. It's just the idea that if you sell something advertising that it's overclockable then make sure it is, throw us a Bone once in a while to make us feel like the gobs of cash we just threw at you was for something.

I read so many posts and Blogs where over enthusiastic People ramp everything up to the max just to have it all overheat and blow up in their Face. Then complain about how crappy the hardware is.

But when you make little tweeks just to fine tune a system and it loses its Mind then there's something wrong.

 

I guess the bottom line here is that I'm a little disapointed in the honesty of manufacturers who produce great hardware but have to dabble in the Grey areas to make their product sound better than the other Guy.

 

As for my Rig I love it and give kudos to Corsair for making a great quality product.

[bigbuck08]

Were you trying to run that RAM at 1066MHz with 4GB? Alot of this problem, well pretty much all of it, is with motherboard manufacters. Not just a single brand, everyone. They havent figured out how to build a good memory controller. This is what kills us when we want to load up our motherboards with RAM. If I am understanding correctly, that is what you tried and it didnt work?

I didnt know any of this nonsense, as that is what it is, a few months ago. I do know now however never to make the mistake of buying four modules. 2x2GB will work for me. The only reason I bought two sets of 2x1GB was because of the latency. Which at that time all I knew was the lower the better.

[KentuckyRanger]

Well I feel better knowing I'm not the only one, LOL!

I was going to get 8GIG but something told me to hold off because there wasn't too many offering it at the Time I put this system together.

 

What you said is what I meant about this post.

I know the computer industry is Dog eat Dog and the first to market wins the race but there has to be integrity in there somewhere. It's like when I first booted this Rig up I had to download drivers from Microsoft because Vista ultimate 64bit didn't have the drivers to handle anything over 3GIG of RAM.

 

I've always liked Corsair, if nothing else they've been in the business for a while and know what they're doing.

 

I looked at nVida and Asus the same way because they've always been in the forefront in computer technology and work Hand in Hand with many hardware and software manufacturers.

 

I think what's happened here in the last Year or so is everyone has got too far ahead of themselves and see their hardware through their name, knowing they'll get the drivers right eventualy.

It's like we've become Beta testers without knowing it.

Just look at how often drivers are being updated for everything, even BIOS.

I wouldn't mind being a Beta tester but let me know before hand so I don't freak out when things don't work like they should.

 

I've had my problems with nVidia's M/Board just as I'm sure you've had your hickups with Asus.

I just wish Co's with good Track records would be a little more up front with its customer base.

I figure in another few Months things will settle down. I have noticed that the newer updates are starting to have a more positive impact on my system but its been 5 Months since I built it, can you imagine what Headaches are ahead of the poor People buying the latest Intel CPU's, DDR3 Memory and SLI M/Boards?

 

Competition is so fierce among hardware manufacturers and I understand that in order to keep up you have to get your stuff to market before the others, just look at what happened a little over a Year ago between Intel and AMD.

 

I remember way back in my early Days with Computers seeing all the hype over Windows 95. It was advertised like crazy and even though IBM's O/S2 was already out and was a much better O/S than Win 95, it didn't matter. People opted to wait for Windows 95 because of the media blitz Bill Gates dumped all over the Country.

Delay after delay, it was such a joke. The big gag line for allot of comedians was that Bill Gates might have to re-print the packaging calling it Windows 96.

 

Now Days it's like they just put it out on the Market and fix what customers complain about.

I think allot of what I'm dealing with has more to do with Vista than hardware but like I said before, I don't like being a Beta tester wtihout my knowledge.

[bigbuck08]

A few years ago I probably would be one of the people buying DDR3 and all that new stuff. Thank god for learning lol. 8GB is a huge waste atm if you not doing some serious video editing. I see where your coming form with being a beta tester so to speak. I like testing things to see how far I can push them, people too :laughing:, and have ended up almost always having beta drives on my pc. Its wierd, but it makes people think that the companies have accomplished something. Out of all the companys I would have to say Corsair has the best customer service. Out of al the times Ive called them I never once talked to someone foreign. Nothing ticks me off more than waiting 30min on the phone for an Asus rep to find out she cant speak english. Other companies have forums like this but thi is the only one ive seen have good support on them from their own people.

[Wired]

Just as a general statement, OCing your memory won't void the warranty, over VOLTING will though. And if you're seeing it run @ 533 Mhz, and it's DDR1066, that's the appropriate speed.

[KentuckyRanger]

That's why I chose the hardware I did.

After all the research as well as experience with the manufacturers I went with who not only me, but everyone I've talked to, have had a good Track record in dealing with.

I can e-mail Corsair or EVGA and have a response within 72 Hours, most of the Time the next business Day.

And if I call I get the answers I'm looking for then and there.

 

I'm like you, I like to tinker. But I have another Rig that I use to push things to their limits. That way when something goes wrong I can laugh instead of cringe, LOL!

Also, if I'm having prblems I'll load Beta drivers. But I always make sure to make a restore point first... :D:

 

 

A few years ago I probably would be one of the people buying DDR3 and all that new stuff. Thank god for learning lol. 8GB is a huge waste atm if you not doing some serious video editing. I see where your coming form with being a beta tester so to speak. I like testing things to see how far I can push them, people too :laughing:, and have ended up almost always having beta drives on my pc. Its wierd, but it makes people think that the companies have accomplished something. Out of all the companys I would have to say Corsair has the best customer service. Out of al the times Ive called them I never once talked to someone foreign. Nothing ticks me off more than waiting 30min on the phone for an Asus rep to find out she cant speak english. Other companies have forums like this but thi is the only one ive seen have good support on them from their own people.

[KentuckyRanger]

Just as a general statement, OCing your memory won't void the warranty, over VOLTING will though. And if you're seeing it run @ 533 Mhz, and it's DDR1066, that's the appropriate speed.

 

You see this is my piont exactly!

I know not to over Volt the Memory but how can anyone consider Memory running at its rated FSB as being overclocked?

 

If I'm supposed to stay within the 5,5,5,15 Timmings then how could anything be considered overclocked.

 

I understand where the O/C function of the nForce 680i is comming from. It takes advantage of the maximum rated performance of the CPU and RAM then adjusts them acordingly and that's great, but why advertise it as overclocking? It's not O/C unless you're taking things beyond the rated maximum speed of the hardware, right?

 

My RAM is PC-2 8500 rated at 1066MHz dual chanel FSB.

If it's rated and running at 1066MHz, how in the World can you say it's being overclocked???

 

I guess I'm just an old Timer, confused and dazed in the new World of Computers, LOL!

When I see a Red Car and I want a Red Car, I buy a Red Car. I don't buy a Blue Car, then paint it Red claiming to have had a Red Car all allong...:laughing:

[audienceofone]

My problem would appear to be that I HAVE to over volt/ modify the BIOS settings to get my rig to work, never mind over clock.

 

I have tried building a rig from the parts below. Each part has been checked individually and it works. Put them together and they don't work. (Not at least without problems.)

 

This is frustrating as technically the system should work.

 

As far as I can tell it is a problem with the memory controller on the m/b. It would appear that running 4 gigs of fast memory is not something that you can currently do without increasing voltages to the NB and RAM and even then it is problematic.

 

My understanding is that the new 780i m/b has the same memory controller as the 680i m/b, so even on a new generation board it would appear that the problem of running 4 gigs of fast ram will continue.

 

If I am wrong I would only be too pleased to find out why. Currently I am only using 2 gigs of ram. The other two gigs (of horrendously expensive ram) are out the case gathering dust.

 

EVGA 122-CK-NF68 680i SLI

TWIN2X2048-8888C4DF x 2# (4gigs)

XFX 8800 Ultra x 2# SLi mode

Antec True Power Quattro (1,000W)

[KentuckyRanger]

I think that what's going on here is RAM is so far ahead of the Curve that Co's like nVidia and Asus just can't keep up.

Then again, the memory contorllers are dated to say the least so who knows what the answer will be in the near future.

 

I read the specs of the 780i and like you said, it has the SAME memory controllers so don't look to be helped out there.

I spent too much Money on SLI with 2 Cards, I sure ain't gonna plunk down another gob of cash on a Third Card when software manufacturers are just now barely catching up to 2X SLI.

 

When I purchased this RAM I thought I was getting the best of the best and I was, just like you.

The problem is that all the other manufacturers haven't kept up and now it's showing to be the achillies heal of all the so called hot Motherbords.

 

After calming down I had to laugh when I tried installing Vista Ultimate just to find that it didn't support 4GIG of RAM out of the Box but had to be updated before 4GIG would work.

 

I think most manufacturers are betting that most consumers won't opt to purchase things like 4GIG of RAM right of the Bat and the few that do are knowledgable enough to make things work with antiquated drivers.

 

Like you said and the reason for this post, why does everyone act like running RAM at the rated speed is considered overclocking?

I've read some very good articles on real overclocking but in order to do so requires over Volting which voids the warranty and as you stated, you have to over Volt a little just to get it running at the rated speed.

Right now my RAM is at 1067MHz FSB but in order to get it there stable I had to run the Voltage up to 2.15V.

I've heard so many horror stories that if you get any higher than 2.2V on the 680i you will burn out the RAM because nVidia's Voltage regulation Circuit sucks...

 

I guess the Bottom Line here is not that I'm angry, just disapointed over the Money I spent for the performance I got.

I might try taking 2GIG of RAM out to see if it makes a difference.

I really feel for the People who'll plunk down the mega Bucks on DDR3 Ram just to have it O/C to 1333MHz...;):

[bigbuck08]

Well if either of you are unsatisfied with your parts feel free to send them to me lol. :biggrin:

[KentuckyRanger]

Well if either of you are unsatisfied with your parts feel free to send them to me lol. :biggrin:

 

LMAO!!! It's not that I'm unsatisfied, just dissapointed.

As for what my system is doing, 15,888 3D Mark6 isn't too shabby in my Book.

One thing I'm going to do is try taking out 2 GIG and see if my score increases. I keep hearing that 4 GIG slows performance which boggles my Mind but I do know that all the leaps in hardware tech is making it hard keep up. ;):

[Xtreeme]

Ive never ever heard intel brag/claim oclocking is good on their cpu! In fact they are fiercly against it and have always been (hence the multi lock on their cpus)!

 

AMD is the ONLY cpu manufacturer I know of that will not void warrenty on oclocked cpu and that is the FX series and black box ones only. Those two amd cpu product lines have unlocked multiplyer for that reason.

 

Ram and video-eh video market is WORSE for this and I agree they are laim for selling video oclocked already then give bios to lower the clock they sold you! That is dumb. Ram- it varies so much chip to chip and stick to stick even IF they wanted to say it runs at x speed beyond stock it wouldnt meet that alot of times. SO....they tell you it runs x speed stock BUT can prob go more (I havent read any garuntees on ram speed from corsair beyond the sticker speed?????). Second I think OCLOCKERS ram mean ram that allows higher fsb then stock ram. So jdec is 800mhz for A cpu therefore 1066 WOULD be oclockers ram on that cpu wouldnt it? It allows a higher fsb on the cpu, while Not clockign the ram outta spec-hence it is oclockers ram, its meant for getting most out of your cpu.

 

It all makes sense to me (besides the video scams).

[KentuckyRanger]

Ive never ever heard intel brag/claim oclocking is good on their cpu! In fact they are fiercly against it and have always been (hence the multi lock on their cpus)!

 

AMD is the ONLY cpu manufacturer I know of that will not void warrenty on oclocked cpu and that is the FX series and black box ones only. Those two amd cpu product lines have unlocked multiplyer for that reason.

 

Ram and video-eh video market is WORSE for this and I agree they are laim for selling video oclocked already then give bios to lower the clock they sold you! That is dumb. Ram- it varies so much chip to chip and stick to stick even IF they wanted to say it runs at x speed beyond stock it wouldnt meet that alot of times. SO....they tell you it runs x speed stock BUT can prob go more (I havent read any garuntees on ram speed from corsair beyond the sticker speed?????). Second I think OCLOCKERS ram mean ram that allows higher fsb then stock ram. So jdec is 800mhz for A cpu therefore 1066 WOULD be oclockers ram on that cpu wouldnt it? It allows a higher fsb on the cpu, while Not clockign the ram outta spec-hence it is oclockers ram, its meant for getting most out of your cpu.

 

It all makes sense to me (besides the video scams).

 

Very good point. It's not Overclocking but they hint all over the place that it is.

No Intel NEVER advertises their CPU's O/C, but they do send them to all the test Mags for free so they can O/C them and tell the World how great they arte fopr O/Cing, So in that round about way yes, Intel does advertise Overclocking in the most round about way...

With my M/Board I can go in and change all kinds of settings on the CPU as well as the RAM and if you tinker without knowing what you're doing you can take out both in a real big hurry.

 

And I'm in total agreement as to everyone touting Factory O/C, huh? First tell me I can't then turn around, do it yourself and charge me more for the same product, double huh?...

 

Everything is overclockable no matter who makes it.

I just wish manufacturers would be a little more up front about it and they'd have allot less RMA headaches if they'd quit targeting 12 Year old middle class wiz Kids who know just enough to get themselves in deep doo doo after their Parents give them gobs of Money to buy the stuff. Then complain because their RAM, CPU or M/Board burned up and what a hunk of junk so and so's product is without really knowing anything... :O)

 

Dang, how did that rant get in here... Sory.

[audienceofone]

Buy dominator ram and (from my experience) you will be on a crash course on how to under clock the ram to make the system stable.

 

Here is what I have painstakingly found on my system:

 

Run 2 gigs of dominator ram and clock it at 1111MHz...you will hit (major) problems.

Run 2 gigs of dominator ram and clock it at 800MHz...no problems.

Run 4 gigs of dominator ram and clock it at 800MHz...you will hit problems.

Run 4 gigs of dominator ram and clock it at 667MHz...reduced problems, but the speed is less than 2 gigs at 800MHz.

 

What problems have I had?

 

Run 4 gigs at 800MHz or above and you can expect the bsod telling you that the nvidia driver caused the problem. In-between the bsod you will also get the "display driver stopped working error." (TDR)

Run at 2 gigs over 800MHz and you can expect the "display driver stopped working error." (TDR)

Run 2 gigs at 800MHz and you should be OK.

 

What have I tried?

 

It would be easier to say what I have not tried to establish the results above. What I have found is that by doing nothing other than lowering the clock speed the problems disappear. I found this out after 6 weeks of experimenting and countless system rebuilds.

 

Will the 780 mobo fix this? Well I will be swapping out my 680 in the next few days, however I have already heard that the same problems occur on the 780 mobo. Not really surprising as the 780 is not significantly different if you take out the 3 card trick.

 

Will the 790 mobo fix this....well from what I can tell it will use DDR3, which will require a new memory controller. So maybe it will, but that's not much good if you have DDR2.

 

My guess is that DDR2 will be finished the minute the 790 mobo comes out and it is only being offered now at speeds above 1000MHz because it is trying to compete with DDR3.

 

The lesson? Don't buy ram over 800MHz unless you want a hole in your pocket and a heap of problems and don't go over 2 gigs. Going over 2 gigs just gives you a lot of pain for no gain.

 

If anyone wants to tell me that they have 4 gigs of this ram running above 800MHz with no problems, or 2 gigs at 1111MHz MHz I would be pleased to hear exactly how you did it, but I reserve the right not to believe you :)

 

If anyone what to buy 2 gigs if dominator 8888 ram of me make me an offer.

[Xtreeme]

You havent been into pcs long if you think ddrII is done already LOL!

 

SDram stuck around LOOOOONG after ddr came out.

DDR stuck around loooong after DDRII came out and is Just now starting to dry up some.

 

DDRII will be around 2 more years I bet, count on it. AND at lower prices then ddrIII for prob about 1 1/2years yet. DDRIII will be sold at a premium. Right now fast DDRII beats the low end DDRIII-

 

DDRII cost more then DDR at first (about a year ) and then settled out. DDRIII will be exactly same barring any tech issues in production or speed increases.

 

DDRII timings are getting tighter as always with ram tech, it will be ahead of ddrIII in this area for a bit as its more mature tech. DDRIII will be seeing tighter timings over the next year to year 1/2.

 

No its not a magic ball, its just beeing around the tech long enough to see the patterns. DDRIII is for extreme enthusiests only right now. The rest of us DDRII will be more sensible for atleast a year or more. Then DDRIII will be the spot, where price and speed come together.

 

Same happened with transition from EDO to sdram. Ya I been in pcs that long. LOL.

 

I understand your frustration however, slamming ddrII tech as old school doesnt do anything (and its false aswell).

[audienceofone]

I'm not slamming DDR2 ram. I'm just pointing out that anything over 800MHz on a Nvidia mobo is going to cause problems. (At least from my experience.)

 

As for DDR2 being out when you can use DDR3 on a Nvidia mobo.... that was in the context of "extreme" pc builders. Of course it will still be around, but hay some people are still using window 98 (or earlier) .....but they are not doing it on a gaming rig.