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Please help, LL + C2 in same box?? GO or NOGO?


vertigo911

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Heres the short and sweet of the issue at hand.

 

A year ago I bought a PC and equipped it with 1GB CMX512-3200LL (XMS3205v1.something) and it was AMAZING. Best performing RAM I'v ever had in a PC.

 

Today I decide to upgrade to 2GB so I go out to buy another pair like I had previously. To my dismay, the LL series of the DDR400 is no longer being sold(?) so I had to decide on the C2 or XL.

 

The XL was too much $$ compared to the C2, and I'm not an overclocker so I decided for the C2.

 

Got home, REMOVED my LL and set it aside, popped the C2 in, and ran CPU-Z. 200mhz showed BUT the timings were showing 3-3-3-8 (or 3-4-4-8, either way something stupid, not the advertised 2.5-3-3-6 for AMD systems). Right away I thought "uh oh, problems".

 

I figured id manually set the correct timings/speed. Went to the BIOS, set 2:1 DDR400 manually, and set the CL manually to 2.5....... reboot, doesnt POST.

 

So I sigh and pop the battery out, and figure "well it cant get much worse than this, lets try it with the LL. So I pop the LL into slots 3 and 4, and turn the computer on.

 

I check CPU-z again and its detecting my LL timings correctly, C2 timings are still FUBAR'd, but NOW my memory speed is 129mhz (not the normal 200mhz).

 

Whats going on here? Anyone know if this memory is bad and needs to be returned?

 

Im pretty sure as long as the memory is CMX-3200 the 2 pairs should be jamming together, but the different timings could be messing it up?

 

plz help

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Athlon 64 3500+ @ 2.2 on an ASUS A8V Deluxe

 

Yes I have been reading up on the datasheets of the CMX-3200LL and CMX-3200C2. They are quite different memory. I think I will return this memory to the store.

 

I paid roughly $250 CDN a year or two ago when I built this PC for the LL. I figured a year or so later that same quality of memory would have been around the price I paid for this pair of C2.

 

Can someone please confirm this incombatibility of the two types of memory. If I want to upgrade, should I buy the 3200XL?

 

The LL has a special SPD program apparently that automatically sets the timings to ultra-qualityness 2326 and such. The C2 does not, it is "dumb" memory and needs to be set manually I assume?

 

You guys are smart, how do I get these 2 pairs to work together for a total of 2GB?

 

CMX512-3200C2 x 2

DRAM Clock: 200 MHz

DRAM Timing (overrides SPD values): Manual

System Performance: Normal

SDRAM Bank cycle time (or tRAS): 6

SDRAM Bank Interleave: 4

SDRAM Row Precharge (tRP): 3

SDRAM RAS-to-CAS Delay (tRCD): 3

SDRAM CAS Latency: 2

Command Rate: 1T

 

CMX512-3200LL x 2

All settings by MB default resulting in:

DRAM Clock: 200 MHz

SDRAM CAS Latency: 2T

SDRAM RAS to CAS Delay (tRCD): 3T

SDRAM Row Precharge (tRP): 2T

SDRAM Active to Precharge Delay (tRAS): 6T

SDRAM Bank Interleave: 4 Bank

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Again, it's never recommended to mix modules. Different ICs, different SPD timings. If you want to try, try these settings, see if it's stable at all.

 

DRAM Clock: 166 MHz

CAS Latency (tCL): 3

RAS to CAS Delay (tRCD): 4

Row Precharge (tRP): 4

Active to Precharge Delay (tRAS): 8

Command Rate: 2T

 

Memory Voltage: 2.7-2.8 Volts (Warrantied up to, but not over, 2.90 volts)

All other settings to defaults.

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I am quite sure those timings/speeds would work.

 

I am looking for DDR400 here, like I have right now with my LL. I do not want to downclock to 166mhz when both my memory pairs are posted at operating under normal conditions @ 200mhz.

 

I dont overclock, all I am asking is I get 2GB of memory working here, running @ 200mhz (DDR400). I am willing to take a hit on the timings, I can settle for 3-4-4-6 or 3-4-4-8 but I would like my memory to be @ 200mhz, I think thats more important than what timings the memory is at.

 

Any way to "downclock" the timings on my LL to match my C2. Or overclock just the timings on the C2 to match the LL @ 200mhz speeds?

 

I know little of memory timings, any help would be nice.

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Officially its not supported, but if you have a MB and CPU that will support DDR400 with 4 modules I would try the timing set to Cas 2.5-3-3-7 at 2.8 Volts and test with http://www.memtest.org to make sure it's stable. If you have a AMD 64 System it most likely will not post with miss-matched memory!
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I am not mixing thge pairs up. Sorry, above I said I was putting the LL in slots 3 and 4 and thats wrong. One pair going in 1 and 3, the second pair in 2 and 4. The first pair is IDENTICAL LL DIMMS the second pair is IDENTICAL C2 DIMMS.

 

Are you saying I need all 4 slots to be IDENTICAL memory?

 

Above you mentioned "if my motherboard can handle 4 slots @ 200mhz speeds". Do most motherboards memory timings need to be lowered from 200mhz to 166mhz when moving from 2 DIMMS to all 4 DIMM slots full?

 

So basically what you are telling me is I need to return this 1GB pair of C2 to the store? And buy what? I want to upgrade from 1GB to 2GB and already have 1GB of XMS3205v1.2 (the LL)

 

What should I buy, given I dont want to scrap my LL? The stores around here no longer carry the LL and only carry the more expensive XL and half as expensive C2.

 

Upgrading memory over the years of owning a PC is one of the simplest things to do. Please do not tell me memory makers / motherboard makers have made this yet another pain in the butt thing to accomplish where you need a comp sci degree just to add another 1GB of memory to a system.

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Part of what will potentially limit your success here will be the core of the CPU you are using. Do you know what core it is, Newcastle (rev - D) or Venice core (rev - E)? By default with 4 DIMMs, the rev - D core CPUs revert to DDR333/166mhz due to a memory controller limitation. In some cases you can manually OC back to 200mhz but there is no guarantee. You can use CPU-Z to get your core info.

 

Ideally, for 2gb of memory in the MOBO you have, you will need to purchase a 2gb TwinX kit of 2 x 1024mb DIMMs. That way, the 4 DIMM issue does not apply to you.

 

Based on my experimentation in the past, mixing slower ICs with the LL will be unstable at best. Mixing ICs in general is a bad idea. 4 DIMMs on an AMD based MOBO is a bad idea if you have a better option. If you use 4 DIMMs, ALL 4 NEED TO BE EXACTLY MATCHED, not just each pair matched.l

 

Mike .

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I have the Winchester Athlon64 3500

 

Overclocking timings is a little less heat intensive than overclocking the fsb Im assuming? Would overcloking the timings on the C2 be an issue, and if so, would I just follow Ram Guys settings above?

 

Seems retarded to put 4 DIMM slots on a motherboard. It gives the customer the illusion of upgradeability, but in reality, they have a better chance at winning the lottery than finding another EXACT pair like the one they bought 2 years prior.

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You cannot mix memory with this MB and or platform they would need to be the exact same part# and revision for all four modules with this MB and CPU.

In addition, with the CPU you have DDR333 would be suggested with more than 2 double sided modules installed. It would be best to replace what you have with one Twinx2048-3200C2 set of modules for best performance with the MB and CPU you have.

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Seems retarded to put 4 DIMM slots on a motherboard. It gives the customer the illusion of upgradeability, but in reality, they have a better chance at winning the lottery than finding another EXACT pair like the one they bought 2 years prior.

Keep in mind that the industry is developing new chipsets and technologies at an incredible pace. It's not designed to inconvenience you. It's to make computers better and faster. 2gb modules like RAM GUY suggested were not even available when your MOBO was designed. And, ASUS cannot control the limits of, or improvements made to the VIA chipset or the AMD CPUs. They make the best board they can with what is available at the time. And on that same note, Corsair made the best memory they could with the LL memory. However, the ICs to make that memory are no longer made so, Corsair had to move on.

 

I'm on your side, it's annoying how quickly very expensive gear seems to become obsolete. However, I"m glad computing is improving because my current systems run circles around what I had 2 years ago, including the 2 A8V Deluxe boards I've had.

 

Mike.

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You cannot mix memory with this MB and or platform they would need to be the exact same part# and revision for all four modules with this MB and CPU.

In addition, with the CPU you have DDR333 would be suggested with more than 2 double sided modules installed. It would be best to replace what you have with one Twinx2048-3200C2 set of modules for best performance with the MB and CPU you have.

 

The idea behind this upgrade was to be able to get the extra 1GB of memory now, then a year or so from now upgrade to a better 939 socket cpu when those prices drop, with the memory ALL at DDR400 (just like the motherboard box said when I bought it, DDR400)

 

For a Corsair employee, buying another $200-$300 kit sounds like a great idea I'm sure!!!!! More $$ for the company!! But this is reality and I dont have all the money in the world, I need to work with what I got, and what I got is a kit of LL.

 

So there is NO POSSIBLE WAY IN THE WORLD I can upgrade my memory, while keeping the 2 DIMMS of LL I have now?????? Not unless I find another EXACT LL kit like the one I purchased a year or so ago????

 

This seems wrong.... very wrong.... how am I supposed to find that memory now when its not being made anymore....

 

Looks like this PC is doomed to stay at 1GB or memory if I choose to keep this kit of LL ?

 

Why do I have a feeling someone in the marketing department thought all this up while rubbing his hands together and grinning.....

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I am sorry and I understand how you feel but this is a limitation of the MB, CPU and or platform not the memory, and the production life of electronics is about 6 months, that's why we always suggest you get the memory you plan on using when you build the system. I would maybe consider selling your modules to a friend or like on Ebay so you can buy a new set of 2-1.0 Gig modules.
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You will need for them to verify what revision their PC3200LL Pro is to determine if it will work with what you have. Check this thread too to compare your revision to what your supplier has:

 

http://www.houseofhelp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44365

 

Here is a cut from that thread:

 

CMX512-3200LL XMS3205v1.2 0410013 = Winbond -5 Rev c

CMX512-3200LL XMS3205v1.2 0403005 = Winbond -5 Rev C

CMX512-3200LLPro XMS3205v3.1 0427034-1 = Samsung -5 TCCX

CMX512-3200LL XMS3205v1.2 0345083 = Winbond -5 Rev C

CMX512-3200LLPro XMS3205v.1.1 0409009 = Winbond -5 Rev C

CMX512-3200LLPro XMS3205v.1.1 0411090-0 = Winbond -5 Rev C

CMX512-3200LLPT XMS3205V1.1 0321134-0 = Winbond -5 Rev B

Twinx1024-3200LLPT XMS3205 V1.1 0343147 = Winbond -5 Rev B

CMX512-3200LL XMS3205v1.1 0312801 = Winbond -5 Rev B

CMX512-3200LL XMS3205v1.1 0307040 = Winbond -5 Rev B

CMX256A-3200LL XMS3205v2.1 0434004-8 = Winbond -5 Rev B

CMX256A-3200LL XMS3205v2.1 0434004 = Winbond -5 Rev B

CMX512-3200LLPro XMS3205v1.0 0349074 = Winbond -5 Rev C

CMX512-3200LLPT XMS3205v1.1 0315018 = Winbond -5 Rev B

CMX512-3200LLPT XMS3205v1.2 0321035 = Winbond -5 Rev C

CMX256-3200LL XMS3205v1.2 0321069 = Winbond -5 Rev C

CMX256A-3200LL XMS3205 v1.1 0314040 = Winbond -5 Rev B

CMX256-3200LL XMS3205v1.2 0321069= Winbond -5 Rev C

CMX256/512-3200LL XMS3205v1.1 0308022 = Winbond -5 Rev B

CMXSD512-3200LL 0508043-0 = Infineon -5

CMXSD512-3200LL 0449005-7 = Infineon -5

CMX512-3200LLPT v1.2 0331028 = Winbond -5 Rev C

CMX512-3200LLPT XMS3205v1.2 0416056-2 = Winbond -5 Rev C

CMX256A-3200LLPT XMS3205v1.2 0325547 = Winbond -5 Rev C

CMX512-3200LL XMS3205 v1.2 0321068 = Winbond -5 Rev C

CMX512-3200LL XMS3205 v1.2 0403006 = Winbond -5 Rev C

CMX512-3200LLPRO XMS3205V.1.1 0408098 = Winbond -5 Rev C

Twinx512-3200LLPT XMS3205 V1.2 0412005-5 = Winbond -5 Rev C

CMX512-3200LLPRO v3.1 0427034-2 = Samsung TCCD

CMX512-3200LL v1.2 0346044 = Winbond -5 Rev C

Twinx512-3200LLPT XMS3205 V3.1 0444035-7 = Samsung -5 TCCD

 

If you can't match them EXACTLY, you may still get instability. Keep in mind that if you buy a pair, it needs to be a TwinX pair tested together. And, if you go this route using 4 DIMMs, you may still face the DDR333 limitation due to your CPU.

 

I realize it is more money but, below is a much safer bet. And, you could probably sell your LL and make up the difference.

 

http://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=009573&cid=RAM.178

 

 

 

 

 

Mike.

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I do not understand this, can someone explain?

 

Which 939 socket CPU would I need to have for 4 DIMMS to operate at DDR400?

Any of the more recent single core 939 CPUs using a Rev - E Venice or newer core will do it. Also, any of the X2 dual core CPUs and the socket 939 Opteron CPUs will do it. The older CPUs (Winchester core, Newcastle, etc) had a memory controller limitation and cannot easily run 4 DIMMs and stay at DDR400. That's why the bios sets them back to 166mhz to insure stability.

 

Using 4 DIMMs with your current CPU "might" be possible. However, if you install 4 DIMMs and the CPU defaults to 166mhz/DDR333 speed, then you can attempt to OC manually back up to or past 200mhz/DDR400 speed. However, since this is an OC with 4 DIMMs it is extremely demanding on your CPU's memory controller so there is no guarantee it will work. The only way to know is to try.

 

Good luck, I realize this has not been a pleasant upgrade. Mike.

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Okay, thanks for the info. I returned the C2 and have begun my search for some more sticks of the CMX3205v1.2 (what I have). Looks like my best bet will be used sticks, all retail outlets I have checked only carry the more recent versions of the LL which ill not work with what I have now Im guessing.

 

As for the CPU using 166mhz with 4 DIMMS in, I planned on upgrading my 939 CPU soon anyways, to the fastest CPU this ASUS A8V can take. At the time of builing this PC, the best 939 socket cpu costed toooo much so I got the 3500.

 

Hopefully 4 DIMMs of CMX3205v1.2 with an X2 CPU on this ASUS A8V will do the trick. If not, it seems I was greatly mistaken in the upgradeability of this machine when I built it a year or so back.

 

oh, also, would it be better, after upgrading my CPU, to use 4 DIMMS or 2? I was told awhile back using more dimms of less memory per-dimm is faster than using lesser dimms with more memory per dimm. Is this true? The theory was that it spreaded it out on the bus more or something....

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oh, also, would it be better, after upgrading my CPU, to use 4 DIMMS or 2? I was told awhile back using more dimms of less memory per-dimm is faster than using lesser dimms with more memory per dimm. Is this true? The theory was that it spreaded it out on the bus more or something....

 

I am sorry but this is a miss-conception and totally wrong, its best to run with 2 modules verses 4 double sided modules because of loading on the memory controller as you add more memory.

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On that MOBO 2 DIMMs is your best option, especially a set of low latency modules if you are a gamer. You will have less latency and load on the CPU's memory controller as it will be addressing 2 DIMMs instead of 4. And, 2 DIMMs will keep you in dual channel.

 

When you shop for CPUs, the best bang per buck deals right now are the dual core Opterons. Fantastic OCing and with a better cache than their x2 conterparts.

 

Good luck on your RAM search . Mike.

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You guys have been a lot of help in me understanding what exactly is going on here, thank you very much. If I have any further questions I know where to come from now on.

 

I will try to sell this LL kit to someone...

Thanks, it kinda stinks sometimes to tell someone bad news but, I hope it did help. I went thru EXACTLY the same sort of thing as you have a couple of years ago . The worst of it is sometimes it costs money to learn these lessons if you don't know of a good forum or some in depth way to study this stuff before you buy. My mistakes costs less since I met RAM GUY.

 

Best of luck to you. Mike .

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