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Why buy XMS memory for "Value" results?


bitspiel

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:soapbox: First off, let me just say straight out I am a bit frustrated with my latest experience with some Corsair memory (it is having to be returned as it is not passing memtest86), so I am venting here.... Ok... I've checked the Corsairs buyers guide and it says for the Intel 875 (a.k.a. Canterwood) chip sets that the TwinX1024-3200LLPRO will satisify the needs for the overclocker. Further reading shows that Corsair reports the timing specs for the TwinX1024-3200LLPRO is 2-3-2-6. Why, then, when I put a pair of these in my 8knxp motherboard and ask it to follow SPD directives does the TwinX1024-3200LLPRO show up as 2.5-3-2-7 (if my memory serves here). Further, I've seen in one of the many Corsair forums, Corsair staff is suggesting overridding the SPD generated values to 2.5-3-3-7 and bumping the DIM voltage to 2.7? I thought one of the reasons we are asked to pay a premium for XMS memory was because it would run, out of the box (as directed by the SPD), at 2-3-2-6 with no monkeying around with the voltage or overriding what the SPD was telling the motherboard. Note they say, through their documentation, that the memory in question is good for overclocking and I am talking just using the part in a stock system, one void of any frequency tweaking. So is it cool for vendors to publish spec sheets that say one thing while marketing the product and then instruct you, after you've bought it, to configure it differently when it won't run at the advertised rates? :nono: I'd sure would like to hear Corsair clear up just what do their customers get if they spend the extra scratch for XMS memory. :confused:
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Honestly I think you are assuming that the MB you have is reading the SPD correctly and it is not. I would suggest that you test the modules on another MB to verify that but this is in fact a issue with the reference bios from Intel and many of the MB's with this chipset will do the same for the timings. You also might check the SPD with AIDA32, as that will tell you what's in the SPD and what the chipset is actually running at. Secondly this chipset in general has not run as well as Nforce2 with low latency memory and some MB's just will not run with aggressive timings, so there have been suggestions to relax the timings. But that is not the fault of the memory. So please test the system with aida32 and tell us what's in the SPD.
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Well I am dispirit for a solution cause I don't want to sit on my hands for the weeks it will take the vendor to replace my memory... but I don't think the system is stable enough to run Windows (an AIDA32 prerequiste). If motherboards don't read SPD correctly, then what's the point of making memory have the overhead of SPD in the first place? Getting back to the subject... if I have to relax the timings, as you suggested, then why don't I just get cheaper memory that's already "relaxed" as a lot of them are running 3-3-3? Surely there must be something returned for the extra price being paid. It's not the warranty... as that is the same... it's not timing as they're converging. Help me see what I am getting for the extra dollars being spent here.
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I've tried 2.5-3-3-7 at 2.7v I've tried 2.5-3-3-7 at 2.6v I've tried 2.5-3-3-7 at 2.5v I've tried 2.5-3-2-6 at 2.7v I've tried 2.5-3-2-6 at 2.6v I've tried 2.5-3-2-6 at 2.5v I've tried 2-3-2-6 at 2.7v I've tried 2-3-2-6 at 2.6v I've tried 2-3-2-6 at 2.5v I've tiried.... :beatchair I think you get the point. Bottom line: one half of the pair will not test cleanly under any combination I've tried. The other half does test fine under several conditions. And as a pair, memtest86 never passes them. :soapbox: The point of this thread was I thought that by paying the extra amount that XMS memory demands I did get a better, and faster (despite all I want to do is run it a stock speeds), product. Yet that doesn't appear to be true in my case. What's worse is it appears that all those memory vendors out there should not even bother advertizing their memory is 2-3-2-6, or whatever, cause as soon as there are problems they hide under (paraphrasing) "the motherboard does not know what its doing so slow down the memory interaction so the system will be happy." The real kisser is that I get to send this "does not work for me memory" back to the vendor who sold it to me (at my expense) and chances are they'll think the memory is ok cause their using a different setup to test. :brick:
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Well I sent the XMS memory back to the vendor today and went out and bought some 2-3-3 no name memory locally. That no name memory has now been running memtest86 for better than 5 hours without a single failure. :headbang: And this no name memory is running at the advertized rate. :eeeeek: The XMS memory would fail within minutes (if not immediately) at the advertized rate and comes with tech support's suggestion to slow it down. :laughcry: It will be interesting to see what the vendor sees with the returned memory that appears to be defective in the eyes of my machine. :dunno:
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by roadster [/i] [B]Well said bitspiel, i have done the same thing as you.its easy to blame everything except the memory (funny that). no doubt ram guy will have some lame arse reply. [/B][/QUOTE] LOL....roadster, do you ever have any original thoughts? WHy don't you go be a flamer somewhere else? I'm quite certain that if the RAM is defective that Corsair will replace it. It is that simple. bitspiel, good luck with your RMA and whatever system components you end up with. Happy Holidays, Mike.
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:ummmm: It is interesting to note that while I have received tips and pointers about how to get the memory I bought (and subsequentily returned) working, I haven't seen anything advanced regarding my originating query: "Why buy XMS memory for "Value" results?" Using extemes, one sees a doubling of price between generic memory and the memory I returned. Some would contend that even at the low ball generic price you should see the generic memory run at the advertized rates. But after paying such a premium for the XMS memory, most would expect strong adherence to the advertized specs. Consquently, I was floored to see the XMS memory that I purchased would not operate at the 2-3-2-6 rate (from the TWINX1024-3200LLPRO spec sheet) advertized. And to make matters worse, "ram guy" suggests "...set the timings manually to Cass 2.5-3-3-7..." For a lay person, it seems that on one hand they say one spec then on the other hand they claim another spec. At the price I paid, I don't want to play "musical spec!" :noooooo:
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bitspiel, I am missing the part in this thread where you were told by RAM GUY, or anyone else, to run your RAM at lesser timings. The Corsair guarantee on TwinX 3200LL Pro is that it will run at the advertised spex or they will replace it. I see above where you stated that you think that the SPD detected at lesser timings than the Corsair advertised spex. Well, set the timings manually and the RAM should run at spex. If not, talk to Corsair or your vendor, and don't listen to small minded bored people that come here to agitate people like you that might have a problem. This forum is for you, the Corsair customer, use if for all it's worth. Every manufacturer has a defective part now and then and I understand that you are POd. We all have probably wanted to throw some offending part against a wall at times. But, you bought a product with a great warranty and you are dealing with a manufacturer that will replace your defective part for the lifetime warranty of said part. Also, if I may offer a bit more assistance, what MOBO are you running? If it is an Asus Canterwood or Springdale MOBO I see something that could have been your problem. [QUOTE]Bottom line: one half of the pair will not test cleanly under any combination I've tried. The other half does test fine under several conditions. And as a pair, memtest86 never passes them.[/QUOTE] Based on your quoted post above, you could have simply gotten an RMA and some new RAM, no questions asked. But, as I said, good luck with whatever you run. Mike
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Gee roadster, you sure do get offended easily. Nothing you have posted is helping the thread starter here. By the way, I did not call any names above when I said "small minded" so I guess you have chosen to include yourself in that category. I was following the forum rules which I have kindly posted for you below. Please don't post any more insults or posts that are not helpful to the thread starter. It makes us both look bad. You might want to concentrate on # 2 below. Have a nice day :bomb: Forum Rules 1) NO SWEARING. Please refrain from using any vulgar language that would offend someone else. Shortcuts to vulgar language do not constitute “no swearing”. 2) NO PERSONAL INSULTS/ABUSE. This site is provided to you for free, and you are free to disagree with other posters, but if you stoop to personal abuse or attacks, your post(s) will be deleted. If you ARE insulted then report the post – PLEASE do NOT retaliate. If you do retaliate you are no better then the abuser and you too will treated as an abuser as stated above. Retaliation by anyone against another is in no way showing any respect for yourself, the person who offended you, nor the rest of the readers of the forums. 3) This forum is here solely for express purpose of supporting current and future users of Corsair Memory. Posts advocating or suggesting the use of a competitor’s product are deemed inappropriate and we reserve the right to edit/delete such posts/threads at our discretion. 4) NO REPEAT POSTS. If no-one answers your question, bump it rather than posting it again. Please don't post the same question in every forum, just the most appropriate one, reading the same thing over and over again is the best way to annoy people and the worst way to get answers. 5) NO ILLEGAL SUGGESTIONS. Please no pointers, how-to’s, advocating etc of any illegal activity, including (but not restricted to) Warez, cloning of copyright software etc. these are our rules, but there are laws and punishment in ALL countries regarding this issue. 6) NO PR0N. Please, no pornographic material or pointers to it. For those that don’t know what PR0N stands for, switch the “R” and “0” around and you will understand. 7) NO SPAM OR PIMPING. This refers to the use of this site as a redirector or gateway to another site for the purpose of collecting click income or advertising. Although there are times when a link to another site is necessary for helping or answering a question, this site reserves the right to determine what is and is not SPAM or PIMPING. Any post/thread that we deem inappropriate for family viewing will be dealt with accordingly. If you have any questions about actions taken against a post/thread please PM the appropriate forum's Moderator(s). Please remember that this is a family-oriented message board. All rules violations will be dealt with swiftly, up to and including making your membership in this forum come to an abrupt end. We reserve the right to edit/delete posts/threads at our discretion.
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Roadster, I understand you may be upset but that is no call for the way you are conducting yourself within this thread. Please start a new thread and follow the rules and I will be happy to help you. Or reply to your thread. But please do not post in another thread, as I will ignore every one except the thread starter. bitspiel I would suggest if at all possible you test the modules on another MB. The MB you have listed in the other thread (GA-8KNXP) has not tested well in our lab no matter what module we have used. I have no problem replacing your modules but the modules may not be the problem. There is no way that we can guarantee that every MB o the market will be able to run our modules only what we test. Please see[URL=http://www.houseofhelp.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=8048]XMS Qualification and Testing [/URL]. And I think if you do a search for the model you have you will see numerous posts about this MB.
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The point is being missed here. This thread is to solicit some sort of justification as to why anyone would pay the premium for XMS memory. Just what is my money buying here? When I made my initial XMS purchase, I thought the premium paid was to guarantee a memory product that would run at spec and one that has been subject to higher QA standards. I, sadly, found neither assumption to be true. And the premium I've paid for XMS memory runs a risk of increasing. By returning the "not working for me memory," I risk being charged 15% from my vendor if it works for them! :nutkick: What boggles my mind is that other memory is available at better than half the cost I paid! That lower priced memory isn't rated 2-3-2-6, but apparently neither is TWINX1024-3200C2PRO/TWINX1024-3200LLPRO. See second post (penned by ram guy) for: [url]http://www.houseofhelp.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19899[/url] Nor does the premium I've paid accelerate the correction of apparently bad memory. I now have past the 1 week mark since my vendor issued an RMA and I am still waiting for a resolution. I've gone out and purchased, locally, no name memory that is just as happy as it can be in my motherboard at 2-3-3-6. Consequently, I don't think going out and buying another motherboard to test the XMS memory on is worthwhile for me. Extra memory one can work with but having a duplicate motherboard is just too expensive.
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Your right Bit, Corsair is misleading its customers and I for one will not buy anymore. The replies I got were less than helpful and my Question was never directly answered. Corsair knows that PC3700 wont work on a 8KNXP at top performance, but has advertised it otherwise. If corsair would like to replace my PC3700 with some PC3500 or PC3200 that they think will work in my 8KNXP with PAT or Top Performance turned on then I might adjust my opinion of their product and customer service. But watch in amazment as this post will either be ignored or answered with some kind of useless giberish thats only ment to frustrate, befudle and otherwise discourage further action on my part but be rest assured as part of the gaming community since 1998 I will tell others of my experience and will not forget an expensive lesson learned.
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A given MB makers settings would not be supported and in the case of Top performance or any performance setting not part of the chipset specification I am sorry but that would not be supported. To run the settings suggested by any MB maker I would use the module that they suggest or have tested to support these settings. I am sorry that you had trouble but Giga-Byte MB's specifically have not over clocked in our lab no matter whose module we have tested. I would ask the reseller if they can exchange your modules for you to one based on Winbond -5 Rev B like XMS3500C2, but I am sorry as we do not sell direct and would not have a way to process a change to another or different part #. All we can do is publish what we test and the settings used for a given module which are all posted under [URL=http://www.houseofhelp.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=8048]XMS Qualification and Testing [/URL] or by looking at the MB makers list of supported memory [URL=http://www.giga-byte.com/Motherboard/Support/TechnologyGuide/TechnologyGuide_List.htm]Giga Byte Tech Guide [/URL] Thank You!
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by bitspiel [/i] [B]That lower priced memory isn't rated 2-3-2-6, but apparently neither is TWINX1024-3200C2PRO/TWINX1024-3200LLPRO. See second post (penned by ram guy) for: [url]http://www.houseofhelp.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19899[/url] [/B][/QUOTE] Good post bitspiel and your point is taken. The above linked thread is a good one too and FULLY illustrates why RAM GUY told a guy to try looser timings. It is merely a stepping stone to getting the system stable, methodically troubleshooting it, then tuning it. Look 2 posts below RAM GUYs: [QUOTE]Just wanted to pass along that my system is VERY stable with this combination. The 8KNXP rev 2, BIOS FE, TwinX 3200LL, and 2-3-2-6 settings seems to work great! Now if I could only do something about my CPU heat..., but that's a subject for a different forum [/QUOTE] So.....your idea of being told to run the RAM at a lesser speed is a bit misunderstood I guess. So, you see, RAM GUY really was genuinely trying to help you, not mislead you or anyone else. Unfortunately, it looks like you probably had a bad module based on your Memtests. Also, I test a great deal of RAM and I would like to test some of that generic RAM that will genuinely run CAS2 and 3,3,6 timings. Please post the part # and brand name for me. Also, do you know if it is made with a 5ns IC or not? 5ns ICs are one of the reasons to pay for Corsair XMS PC3200LL. I'd like to test my LL against this generic RAM and see of it can score as well in Super PI, AIDA 32, and SiSoft Sandra etc. Then, we'll know if you truly have a bargain on your hands and some RAM that is as fast as the Corsair. I'd love to pay less for some RAM myself:D: Happy New Year. Mike.
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by kgw [/i] [B]Your right Bit, Corsair is misleading its customers and I for one will not buy anymore. The replies I got were less than helpful and my Question was never directly answered. Corsair knows that PC3700 wont work on a 8KNXP at top performance, but has advertised it otherwise. [/B][/QUOTE] I'd like to see this ad so I too don't get mislead. Could you please post a link to it? Thanks, Mike.
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[url]http://corsairmicro.com/corsair/products/guides/Gigabyte-Jul2003.pdf[/url] .. And dont tell me that it dosent say anything about Pat or Top Performance thats implied when they write OVERCLOCKER next to it.
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I am sorry but there is nothing implied and we have stated on numerous posts that any setting that’s not part of the chipset Spec could not be supported. And as a rule we have suggested that any performance mode be Disabled and or set to Auto and the settings be set manually to what’s listed in [URL=http://www.houseofhelp.com/v2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8048]XMS Qualification and Testing [/URL] for the modules that you have. The reason is simple in that these types of settings will often times ignore the timings either set by SPD or what’s set manually and may run a given module out of Spec. And in fact most of the BIOS’s I have seen have a warning about this setting. I am sorry that you are not happy but please try to see that we can only guarantee what we test and if a MB uses a settings that makes changes that are not documented or the changes it makes are not listed as is the case with MB makers predefined performance settings their is little we can do. There are just too many MB's and not all of them will follow the same guidelines. Bottom line if one of or any of our modules will not run at the tested settings we will be happy to replace them. But I am sorry there are just too many different MB's to promise that our modules will work with every MB and every MB's special settings.
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He knows I cant return it because its been too long. Click on his link to Gigabyte and find me some help and if gigabyte says dont buy the 3700 they werent saying when I bought it, If its there let me know. And come on if its really so good why cant they send me some Ram that will work like the 3500. Watch in amazment once again as the PC3700 is discontinued. And we all are ignored. I know I wont get any help as I wasent in the past when my demeanor was much nicer. Does anyone think perhaps SPECMIKE is an agent of Corsair.
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by kgw [/i] [B] Does anyone think perhaps SPECMIKE is an agent of Corsair. [/B][/QUOTE] It's no secret, I post frequently that I am brand loyal to Corsair. But, I don't buy products that don't work. I'm not blindly loyal nor am I a fanboy. When something works, I buy it. I am not trying to get into an argument with you kgw. I simply asked for a link so that you could back up the claims you are making. No hard feelings on MY part and I understand that you are POd. Unfortunately, when building our own computers, we all have probably had to learn an expensive lesson. I know I have. We don't have the luxury of Gateway or Dell tech support. But, I think the lesson here really has nothing to do with the RAM. Bottom line is, you can't run performance settings with every MOBO and RAM combo, and especially not with RAM that is already OCd. Those settings just ignore your manual bios settings, don't comply with the Intel chipset design spex (which is what Corsair uses along with JEDEC to design RAM) , and are totally different with each different brands of MOBOs. But, RAM GUY made his point and you made yours kgw. My opinion really doesn't matter here. I just asked a question so that you could back up your point. Good luck with whatever RAM you end up with I hope you have a Happy New Year. Mike.
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[url]http://www.corsairmemory.com/corsair/products/specs/cmx512-3700.pdf[/url] [QUOTE]Tested at JEDEC standard latency settings (3-4-4-8), command rate of 1T[/QUOTE] PAT is an internal function of the 875 chipset and cannot manually be enabled or disabled reliably. And, it's up to Gigabyte to control that anyway, not Corsair. Performance settings ingore manual timings so your complaint should really be with Gigabyte. As for "OVERCLOCKING", the RAM will run at 266 mhz at the listed timings or, as RAM GUY says, they will replace it. A 66mhz OC is pretty good, that's appr. 40% over stock.
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