Is the cpu cooling on the i7400 good?

[Scotters]

I will be playing in 4k at max settings games like Elden Ring, Witcher 3 (Next Gen Update), Cyberpunk 2077, etc, and I was wondering how the cpu temps were in the i7400? 

I am picking this up in a week at a local bestbuy, but I want to ensure that the cpu cooling is good.  For a $3800 computer, it better be, right?

[c-attack]

The 7400i comes with a 240mm AIO radiator up top — the largest that will fit in that spot. The 4000D is a relatively compact mid-size case, so there aren’t too many other options. In theory a slightly larger 360mm radiator could fit in the front depending on gpu length, but cpu temp is not going to be a limiting factor in any setup. Your gpu temp and it’s waste heat will be the main performance limiting factor. 

[Scotters]

Thanks c-attack!  A flight sim buddy of mine told me that I will be fine!  I guess I'm just being as careful as I can with a 4k gaming pc.

[Scotters]

Ok, I am loving the i7400, but I am concerned with the temps of the i913900k.  It has reached a high of 86C to 89C, albeit when being pushed to the limit with games like Red Dead Redemption 2,  Microsoft Flight Simulator, and Forspoken.  It idles around 33C, which is beautiful.  The 4090 GPU is staying around 66C when pushed in games, with it reaching in the high 70s only in MS Flight Simulator, so I'm not too worried about the GPU.  Btw, in the summer my ambient room temp is around 72F to 73F, so that should not be an issue.

 

Should I be worried about the longevity of the CPU?  I do have a 3 year warranty, but I don't want it crapping out right after that.  If I should be concerned, is there a program to increase the fan speed, or is there something else that I should do?

Edited June 15, 2023 by Scotters
typo

[c-attack]

I think this is something you’ll address you tighter voltage control rather than cooling. If you are hitting 90C or thereabouts it will be from high voltage peaks. A lack of cooling power would be the first 30 min of gaming my cpu temp is 70C, then 30 min later it’s 80C, and after an hour it’s 90C. 
 

let me see if I can find an appropriate guide for you. My 13900K is clocked to 6.2 peak and 5.8x8. I peak out near 70C for gaming with normal temps below 60. 
 

What motherboard do you have?
 

Edited June 15, 2023 by c-attack

[Scotters]

C-Attack, thank you for your help!  I am hoping not to reduce performance, and I don't care if I need to blast the fans.  Also, if things are good the way they are, I'm good with not making any changes, I just want to be sure that occasional peaks at 86-90 C is not too bad.   I made sure that my good old i7 8700 cpu always stayed under 80, but that was with blasting the fans using the Alienware fan management.

My motherboard on the Corsair i7400 is a ProZ690.  (I think that is MSI.)

Btw, no overclocking has been done.  I just used MSI afterburner to monitor the temps, since iCue does not tell me what the highest temp was while gaming, and things cool real fast, so it was hard to tell what the peak temps were with iCue.

 

Also, if it makes a difference, most of the cores stayed in the low 70s, with some even in the 60s.  It was CPU 15 and CPU 16 that reached 87C while playing Forspoken at the highest settings this morning.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Scotters
Detail about the CPU core temps

[Scotters]

Update, I discovered what I was looking for on iCUE.  For anyone else, here is what you need to do if you want to increase the fan speed.  Open iCue, click on the image of the cooler (it is square and has the Corsair logo on it, just like what is in your machine.  Click on cooling, and then for each fan click on extreme.  It is still very quiet.

 

Now will this prevent the higher 86 and 87C temps when I push this to its limits in games in 4k, HDR, highest settings?  I will test that soon.

[c-attack]

2 hours ago, Scotters said:

Btw, no overclocking has been done. 

No, I didn't think so and that is actually the issue.  The default voltage curves tend to be a little heavy on the voltage.  They need the worst 13900K there is to boot up and function normally.  Some of the motherboards are getting more sophisticated with their voltage curves and it adjusts based on need, but most still apply extra voltage right out of the box.  The second thing is most motherboard do in fact overclock the CPU in a somewhat nominal way by boosting the "all core" frequency to something closer to the single core max.  Some boards now give you an opt out or notification it is doing that, but again most will do it automatically and make you manually set it back to true default.  The combination of these two things usually leads to higher than expected temperature, but "better performance" in motherboard shootouts versus another board that does not do this.  My core temps at 6.2x2 and 5.8x8 are lower than this CPU produced right out of the box at default settings.  The reason is I have set a specific Vcore and curve for it to follow and it is lower than the derfault while providing higher performance.  

 

I think the next step is to figure out where your Vcore peaks out during gaming.  Try using something like HWMonitor that keeps track of min/max/avg.  Gaming loads are lighter than a full stress test, but you don't get the Vdroop and thus the Vcore tends to be high here.  HWMonitor will not interfere with CUE.  If you use something like AIDA or HWinfo, you need to disable monitoring of the internal Corsair components.  

Edited June 15, 2023 by c-attack

[Scotters]

Ok, I just tested with Forspoken, played a little bit and ran the benchmark, and with the fans at the highest speeds, it went great!  Max temps for the processor were at 74C.  That might go up a little bit with extended play, but I think I am good.  And max temp for the GPU was 66C. 

 

Earlier, I just could not find the setting to get the fans to go max, and now that I did I think I am good.  If I still run into high temps, then I will follow your advice and get HWMonitor, but for now, I think we are good!  Thank you for helping me, I really appreciate it.

[Scotters]

Update.

Last night playing Forspoken and AC Vahalla for a while, temps reached 84C in two cores of the i9 13900k with the fans running in "extrmeme" mode using iCue.  The GPU reached only 67C, which is great. 

 

Even with the higher CPU temps, it is below 85, and a recent article from Tom's hardware shows that there really is not any call for concern.  Here is the quote from Tom's Hardware:

 

"While in the past a CPU hitting its peak temperature was cause for concern, enthusiasts are going to have to learn to accept high temperatures as “normal” while running demanding workloads with Raptor Lake and Ryzen 7000 CPUs.

Modern AMD & Intel CPUs are designed to run fairly hot without any problems – up to 95 degrees Celsius for AMD Ryzen 7000 CPUs, and up to 100 degrees C for Intel Raptor Lake CPUs. Similar behavior has been standard in laptops for years due to cooling limitations.

Furthermore, Intel’s i9-13900K supports Adaptive Boost Technology (ABT), which allows Core i9 processors to dynamically boost to higher all-core frequencies based upon available thermal headroom and electrical conditions. This allows multi-core loads to operate at up to 5.5ghz if the necessary amount of thermal dissipation is there. This feature works in a way that actively seeks high temperatures: If the chip sees that it is running below the 100-degree C threshold, it will increase its performance and power consumption until it reaches the safe 100C limit, thus sustaining higher clocks (and providing better performance) for longer periods."

 

A friend of mine who I have flown with in Falcon BMS has been trying to convince me that my temps are ok, and with that article above, I believe that he is right.

 

However, C-attack, if you feel that I should be concerned with CPU temps up to 84-85C, please let me know.  Thank you again for all of your help and suggestions.

 

 

[LeDoyen]

concerned no. they are not dangerous for your CPU lifespan. but they could be lower 🙂

I've had the same issue when i switched to a 13900k last month. doing a cinebench run would make it bump against thermal limits and the thing was pulling in excess of 350W, and that's with custom watercooling.

By default, most motherboards leave "multicore enhancement" enabled, and disable all the power limits to get as much performance as possible, at the cost of crazy thermals.

I had to go in bios to disable MCE, re-enable the Intel power limits (253W max) and the CPU was behaving a LOT better with no performance difference, like at all.

Now it gets to 82 - 83°C when pushing it with cinebench, and in game it hovers in the 55-65°C range (will be a little higher with an AIO but not by much). That's just with playing with two settings. it can be tweaked to run even better as C-attack does for example.

So your temps are OK for the CPU, but maybe the motherboard is pushing the CPU harder than needed. That's what you'll see with HWmonitor (possible high Vcore voltages, high power usage etc..)

[c-attack]

I also don't think there is cause for concern, but you likely can lower CPU temps without a decrease in performance by finding the voltage level your specific CPU needs and not a 'worst case scenario' voltage level.  Some motherboards now do have a general setting for this and shifts the curve up or down based the choice without a lot tinkering.  I also agree you should keep the standard 253W power limit in place.   Taking it off really accelerates temperature increase at the upper end with minimal improvement in performance.  You only need to take this off for running competitive benchmark runs.  

 

The thermal shifts are more complex on 13900K and it's not like the old top end limiter that dropped your frequency dramatically at the limit.  That is still there, but the new system is more subtle and adaptive boost will increase frequency based on lower temps.  Those values are visible in some BIOS versions and the temp values tend to be lower than you think.  So for whatever it's worth, you likely average a high clock frequency with a 55C average vs 65C average using the standard boost curve.  

[Scotters]

LeDoyen and c-attack, thank you for your helpful replies.  I figure if everything is working fine, and if the longevity and performance of the CPU are not affected, then leave well enough alone.  

I really appreciate all the help.  

 

 

 

 

[Scotters]

C-Attack, I need your help.  Playing X4 foundations and Elite Dangerous was getting my cpu terms up to 97C!  However, the GPU did not go higher than 71C.  So I should use HW monitor?  What exactly do you want me to do with that then?  Is there a report I should post from it or something?

[Scotters]

C-Attack, I need your help.  When playing X4 foundations and Elite Dangerous, I was running into cpu temps of 97C!  However, the GPU was no higher than 71C, so that is good.  Anyways, I will get HW monitor.  What do you want me to do next?  Is there a report from HW monitor that I should post or something?

[c-attack]

In HWinfo, you likely will need to disable the monitoring on any internal Corsair device like the AIO or a Commander Pro/Core type controller.  HWinfo and CUE tend to step on each other's toes.  You can do this by right clicking the device name in the sensor panel and choosing disable.  

 

However, the part you are looking for is in two places.  Near the beginning of the sensor panel is a line called Core VIDs.  This is the amount of voltage the CPU is requesting at any given frequency.  You want to know the Maximum value it is asking for.  In Intel default mode, that's usually around 1.37v.  The other place to check it against is under the Motherboard (name) section.  There will be 5-6 temperature values and then the first yellow lightning bolt will be "Vcore".  That is how much voltage the motherboard supplies to the CPU.  Again check max value.  We need to figure out of the higher than expected temps are voltage created or something else.   You don't need to run a stress test to get the values to peak out.  When you do run a 100% sustained load, the voltage will drop.  Opening up a browser or other program is usually enough to make several cores go to their frequency max and cause the voltage to reach the cap.  

[Scotters]

Thanks C-Attack for your help.

 

Max Core VID 1.505 V.   Current value right now is 1.422V   Minimum was .789V

 

I ran Mech Warrior 5 and X 4 foundations for a bit. 

 

Oh, I did not disable anything, Hopefully we are still good, if not I will do that.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Scotters

[Scotters]

A good friend of mine that I fly with in Falcon BMS keeps telling me not to worry, that the cpu is doing exactly what it is suppose to do, and that everything is fine. He wrote on discord,

"If there is headroom, it boosts. If you want a cooler processor, buy a different cpu

We discussed the spec. Intel targets 100*.

It's engineered to run hot.

The 13900 cores are much smaller and have a protective heat spreader. Makes it harder to pull the heat away, but that's why Intel engineers it to run at a specific temp and throttle itit exceeds that temp. You should only be concerned if your PC starts shutting down due to temp."

 

When I asked if if I should be worried about the computer shutting off since I was approaching almost 100 C while gaming today, he wrote,

" No.
It's targeting 100.
That's like saying if I'm targeting the bullseye and I hit it, I must be doing something wrong.
Keep the aio radiator and inside of the case clean and let the hardware do what it was designed to do. "

 

He is a good tech guy that really knows what he is talking about, so do I really need to do anything, or am I good to go?  I really don't like messing with the computer if its working, it seems that then something else goes wrong, lol!  What you you think C-Attack?

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Scotters

[c-attack]

You can't melt the CPU playing games and there is a difference between a momentary temperature peak and sustained high current/power temperature loads, like running CPU encoding, renders, or Prime95 all day long.  The CPU will protect itself when it feels it is too close to the limit.

 

That said, I think it most likely this is what LeDoyen and I were wondering about above.  Your motherboard in its default state does not use Intel default limits, but instead runs some type of all core overclocking that is above the normal 5.8x2, 5.5x8 core set up.  It then uses the VID table to come up with a voltage number, albeit a rather high one.  For comparison, I have a 1.46v cap on VCore but that goes along with a CPU that will boost to 6.0x4 cores and 5.7x8.  So I think you need to go in and set the auto overclocking back to default and make a comparison.  

 

The way to do this varies with motherboard.  What is the motherboard model?  HWINFO will tell you as well.  I know Asus very well.  For the others we'll need to to work through it.  It's usually one setting at the top and it will have some innocent sounding name like CPU enhancement or "Asus Multi-Core Enhancement", etc.  

[Scotters]

MSI Pro Z690.

 

https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/PRO-Z690-A-WIFI

 

Just in case I did not mention this, the Computer that I bought from Corsair is the i7400 with, of course, the i9 13900k, the 4090 GPU by PNY, 64 gb ram, and 2tb NVME SSD with another 2TB added.  And yep, the motherboard is the MSI Pro Z690.  I know that corsair does change what components they use, but I did confirm that it is the MSI.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Scotters

[c-attack]

I’m still reading various MSI guides, but it looks like they bypass the Intel 253W power limit in an unorthodox way. On the front page if the BIOS there is a section that asks you about your cooling method. However, rather than some AI powered complex algorithm as to what the processor does, this operates like a normal to extreme power limits override. Apparently choosing “water cooled” takes off all the limits. 
 

Go into the bios and see what it says for “cpu cooler tuning”. If on water cooled. Set it back to default or “air cooler” to put the power and voltage back in check. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by c-attack

[Scotters]

c-attack,

Before making any changes, I just want to be clear, why do I need to make changes?  Will there be any benefit?  Is there any real reason to run the CPU at a cooler temp?  I only want to make changes if absolutely necessary.

 

If indeed it is necessary to make changes, I have never done anything with the bios before, and not only do I not have a clue as to how to do what you asked, I am also very nervous with messing with the bios.

 

If the computer will be ok, I am thinking of leaving things as is.  What do you think?  Or do we really need to do something?

 

Also, the cpu is cooled with H100i RGB Elite(Opens in a new window) 240mm liquid cooling solution on the processor.

[LeDoyen]

18 minutes ago, Scotters said:

c-attack,

Before making any changes, I just want to be clear, why do I need to make changes?  Will there be any benefit?  Is there any real reason to run the CPU at a cooler temp?  I only want to make changes if absolutely necessary.

 

scratch scratch scratch... "Is there any real reason to run the CPU hotter?"

the bios is overdriving the CPU for... no reason besides benchmark bragging rights for MSI. You are having a hot CPU because they want good results in sub-par benchmarks by youtubers that may be too careless to check if they go by Intel power limits.

Basically the bios settings are already borked by default ^^ the worst you can do by changing the settings he described is make things better 😛

raising the power limit gives very marginal gains in perfs but huge "gains" in heat.

the setting in question is very safe to change. Maybe you'll get more life time off your AIO by not overloading it constantly too. A 240mm AIO on an unlocked 13900K is far from ideal. Even the big 420mm AIOs can barely keep it in check in that configuration. 

[Scotters]

Thank you LeDoyen.

 

Ok, then how do I safely make those changes in the bios?  What exactly do I do.  Keep in mind I have no idea how to access the bios, I have never done this before, I need exact directions please!

 

Also, is this something every single person has to do that buys an expensive i7400 Vengeance Computer from Corsair?  That is ridiculous.  The reason people by prebuild systems is so they don't have to worry about this stuff.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Scotters

[c-attack]

This is something everyone who buys an Intel 13900K or 13700K needs to do on almost every motherboard except the bottom rung SKUs that don't have the hardware to use the higher power.  Motherboard manufacturers are in the habit of extending past the default power and clock limits in order to obtain more favorable head to head review results against competitors.  I have zero problem with them having a setting to do this - bam! full power.  It's a bigger problem when it happens out of the box.  In a 2 liter, 2x480mm cooling system, my 13900K will hit 95C running Cinebench R23 at the stock settings because the motherboard has taken the power and voltage limits off.  This also gives me gaming peak temps in the 80s.  By putting the power limits back on and then overclocking my 13900K, I run 400 MHz faster and 20C cooler.  There just isn't a good reason to run these 8+16 core CPUs at crazy power levels.  You create a lot more heat, more watts, more wear and tear, for negligible gains.  By putting the power limit back on, it should drop your temperatures and voltage without lowering any of your clocks and thus performance remains the same -- only using less energy and running cooler.  

 

To enter the BIOS, restart the PC and mash the "delete" key on the right side of the keyboard above the arrow keys.  If you have a RGB keyboard, the right moment is just after it lights up.  That when the BIOS initializes the keyboard.  It can be hard to get into when you first try as the timing window is usually pretty small.  As an alternative, you can get Windows to do it for you by going to Settings -> Recovery -> Advanced Start-up.  That will reboot to a special screen and entering the BIOS will be one of the menu choices.  This does require the PC to reboot twice and is slower, but it will get you there at your own speed.

 

Once in the BIOS, I only want you to look at one thing.  It's in the picture below.  Find the "CPU cooler tuning" line and see what it has been set to.  I am expecting it to say "water cooling" like in the picture.  That is apparently MSI code for no power limits, unlimited voltage.  See what other options are available.  You want the "default" option if there or it may say something like "air cooler".  If you're not sure, simply exit the BIOS and tell us what it says.  The only thing this should do it put the Intel power limits back on.