5000D and h150i fan configuration & control

[Nahemoth]

Hi,

I have finished building a new PC over a 5000D Airflow case (13900KF, Asus Rog Strix Z790-F, Gigabyte 4090 and Corsair H150i cooler). The fan configuration consists on:

* Three intake fans on the front side

* Three intake fans on the lateral side

* One fan in the rear

* Push - pull fan configuration (six in total) for the h150i cooler, installed on the top of the case. The six h150i fans should be the same model?

The three main fans (push) of the h150i are controlled with iCue (driven by the CPU temperature), but the other fans are randomly connected to different fan channels, using the PWM repeater (x6) provided with the 5000D case.

I think that I'm missing something with this wiring, and I was thinking of getting a Commander Pro in order to centralize the fan control.

In any case, what would be the recommended wiring and strategy for controlling all the fans?

Some advice and things to take into account are welcome.

Thanks!

[Nahemoth]

Hi,

 I would like to update the information with the current fan setup:

* Three intake SP120 ELITE fans on the front side

* Three intake fans on the lateral side (2x ML120 PRO + 1x AirGuide fan 120mm)

* One AirGuide 120mm fan in the rear side

* Three push ML120 fans for h150i cooler

* Three pull fans for h150i cooler (2x Noctua NF-A12x15 + 1x AirGuide fan 120mm)

As can be seen, it is a mixture of different fan models, and I'm not so confident about this configuration.

Any advice?

Thanks!

[c-attack]

You should have one "6 fan PWM hub" with the case.  With 13 fans you may need another or an additional controller.  Best choice there likely depends on any future RGB plans.  

 

Option 1 - Additional PWM hub.  These are cheap (less than $20 USD) and come in sizes from 4-10 fans.  It would go to another fan port on the Commander Core.  The most likely set-up is 6 radiator fans on Corsair 6 fan PWM hub.  Then either: a) 6 front + lateral fans on hub #2 and rear fan connected to Com Core.  or b) Either front 3 or lateral 3 on PWM hub.  That leaves 4 fan ports on the Com Core for 3 front/lateral and 1 rear.  

 

Option 2 - You add a Commander Pro or XT.  For some users with water cooling builds or lots of left over RGB hubs from ML-Pro and LL fans, the Commander Pro may be the better pick.  For most new users, the Commander XT is going to be better for future RGB fan inclusion.  It is the sibling to your Commander Core without the AIO power side and allows direct connection of the PWM and RGB wires from your fans.  Commander Pro and Lighting Node Pro devices use a RGB Lighting Hub booster to help with power allowing up to 12 fans per controller vs the 6 RGB max on the Commander Core/XT.  This is more expensive than a PWM hub, but if you do have future RGB fan or RGB strip plans, it makes more sense to do this now.  Now it's 13 fans across 12 ports and you still have the 6 fan PWM hub.  I might still keep all 6 or at least one side of the radiator fans on the PWM hub.  There is no reason for them to run different speeds.  

 

Mixing fan types on the radiator push/pull sides can be impactful or utterly meaningless.  The strongest clue you have a bad match is it seems like it makes a lot of air noise.  Sometimes this takes the form of odd buzzing, mild squealing, or just generally unpleasant white noise sound.  That is a result of pressure imbalances.  Sometimes you can compensate with speed adjustments on one side vs the other.  Sometimes it just isn't going to be satisfactory and you are better off with a single side of fans.  The H150i is perfectly capable if dissipating the 253W watt max on the 13900K and conductivity/voltage is going to be your limiting factor.  You probably only need push-pull if you unlock and overclock in combination with running professional type programs for rendering, encoding, or anything that keeps the CPU load near maximum for long periods of type.  You don't need it for standard mixed use stuff and it will make no difference for gaming.  I am really pleased with mine and was surprised to see gaming watt loads slightly lower than my 10900K even when running a 5.6x8 TVB+2 overclock.  

[LeDoyen]

And you would be better off leaving the H150i fans be controlled by the water temperature (H150i temp) rather than CPU temperature.  the fans are actively cooling the water, and not the CPU. The water needs to soak a lot of energy to warm up, so, as long as it's cool, there's no need to accelerate the fans at each CPU temperature spike.

This is how all watercooling works, custom or closed loop, so you might as well enjoy the silence of the fans ramping up and down gently rather than having turbine sounds each time you open a new page on your browser 🙂

[Nahemoth]

Thank you for the answers!

The use of this PC is for gaming, but VR (4K) flight simulators. They are CPU intensive, but not excessively. In opposition to the GPU (4090), which uses most of its resources. So, I forgot no mention that the fans are not only for cooling the CPU, but also to help the GPU (but I don't want to install water cooling for it). The 13900K is for the moment overclocked at 5.6 GHz.

If I understood well, you propose installing the 6 radiator fans on the PWM hub, I guess that the hub should be connected to the h150i controller, am I right?

I was planning to acquire a Commander Pro (not planning RGB for the future), so I could get two different iCue controllers (plus the h150i one).

But I need to think about what six radiator fans could install, maybe add another three ML120?

Thanks!

[c-attack]

There tends to be a general misunderstanding about how water cooling works and we automatically think of submerging things to cool them off.  All CPU coolers work on the CPU in the same way -- they conduct heat away from the CPU to somewhere else.  What differentiates the various cooling methods and models is how that heat is disposed of after.  An air cooler conducts the heat into the small radiator and then blows it off.  A water cooler conducts the heat into the coolant stream which then transports the heat to a radiator elsewhere to be blown off.  There is some advantage is water's ability to pick up/absorb/transfer heat and it is more efficient than air transfers.  In essence, after the heat transfer from the CPU, you can get the heat off the CPU block better with water than air.  The point here is no matter what you do with fan speeds, it does not affect the immediate, right now CPU temperature.  You are regulating the amount of waste heat in the liquid part of the system.  Heat transfers both ways across the CPU block, so the liquid temp is the minimum possible CPU temp at 0v.  As liquid temp increases by +1C, CPU temp baseline also increases +1C.  Same thing for cooling and -1C=1C. 

 

This is a long way of explaining that CPU temp is not the right control choice for the water cooler.  It will make your fans ramp up and down with every loading screen, even though that has no effect on cooling.  Blasting the fans to 1600 rpm for 2 seconds will not alter your CPU temp even a fraction of a degree.  The radiator and fans are effectively taking out the trash heat from the CPU.  As long as they keep making regular trips, the waste heat does not build up and thus does not add to CPU temperature.  Borrowing from common water cooling radiator tests, a constant 300W load on a 360mm radiator will add about 8C to your CPU temperature when the fans are at a constant 1300 rpm.  If you run it again at 1800 rpm, the coolant will hold steady at about +6C after about 10 minutes.  That's a 2C CPU and liquid temp difference for a fairly strong increase in fan noise.  This is for sustained max CPU activities at the 300W level.  Most CPUs are not capable that.  Now when you turn this into a highly variable CPU load for gaming at values ranging from 30-180W, the cooler is capable of expelling that level at nominal fan speeds.  Most of your coolant temp increase you see when gaming will not be from the CPU at all.  It will comes from the increase in case ambient temperature caused by the GPU heating things up. 

 

So the best control variable is the H150i Temp.  It will increase only as needed when under CPU load, high constant or variable without sudden fan shifts.  When under gaming conditions with GPU heat, it will still increase fan speed in response to GPU activity as part of its exhaust duties.  That said, your preference would be for GPU waste heat to go out the back fan rather than through the CPU cooling system up top, but the fans will slowly ramp up to match these changes either way.   

 

3 ML-Elite on the radiator will be just fine.  That is what you have now on the underside.  You really have to be careful with Corsair superlatives like Pro, Elite, Ultra, XT, etc.  They usually denote substantially different models.  Your current fans SP-Elite and ML-Elite from the AIO are all 8 LED fans.  The prior generation was ML-Pro with 4 LEDs and a slightly different blade structure.  

Edited November 25, 2022 by c-attack
excessive text errors

[Nahemoth]

53 minutes ago, c-attack said:

So the best control variable is the H150i Temp.  It will increase only as needed when under CPU load, high constant or variable without sudden fan shifts.  When under gaming conditions with GPU heat, it will still increase fan speed in response to GPU activity as part of its exhaust duties.  That said, your preference would be for GPU waste heat to go out th back fan rather than through the CPU cooling system up top, but the fans will slowly ramp up to match these changes either way.   

Thank you for the detailed explanation, I got how the coolers work. It is clear that the CPU fans must follow the coolant temperature, but what about the rest of the fans (front, side and rear)? What temperature must they use?

And concerning the GPU, it has its own fans, but I guess that the front and rear could help getting cold air and taking out hot air, respectively. Should they also take the GPU temperature for their control?

 

1 hour ago, c-attack said:

3 ML-Elite on the radiator will be just fine.  That is what you have now on the underside.  You really have to be careful with Corsair superlatives like Pro, Elite, Ultra, XT, etc.  They usually denote substantially different models.  Your current fans SP-Elite and ML-Elite from the AIO are all 8 LED fans.  The prior generation was ML-Pro with 4 LEDs and a slightly different blade structure.  

My radiator is a h150i PRO XT, it has no RGB. But I'm not sure about all these fan models...

Thanks!

[c-attack]

24 minutes ago, Nahemoth said:

What temperature must they use?

Regular case fans can use H150i XT temp too to help with balancing intake vs exhaust.  That won't work with motherboard control.  Best options vary by board, but they also do better with adding hysteresis to the fan speed changes (+12 second delay on change, etc).  You might have to use CPU temp for now.  GPU temp could be better if available.

 

If you get a Commander you can also use it's thermal probe temp data.  That can be positioned near the rear exhaust as a measure of internal case temp or it can go on the back side of the radiator to mimic coolant temp.  That also will keep those Commander fans level during boot/shutdown, BIOS, or non-CUE states where the controller cannot get data from other devices.  

 

 

OK, we have to back up a bit.  Obviously Corsair really complicates the naming issues and most days here we are awash in Elite Capellix models with the Commander Core controller.  Since you have the H150i XT with only its three internal fan headers, I need to amend the original answer.  

Option 1 - PWM hub by itself not really a great option.  This limits you to using the XT as a supplemental controller.  You connect the PWM hub lead to 1 fan header from the XT.  All fans in the case do what the H150i XT does.  It works, but not a great long term option.  

Option 2 - Get a Commander Pro or Commander XT.  Same criteria as above.  You can probably get by with two PWM splitters plus 6 fan PWM hub to squeeze all 13 onto one Commander Pro/XT.  The other option would be to pick up a larger PWM hub (10 fans) that would let you free up more space on the Commander PWM side, either by putting them on the 10 fan one or using both PWM hubs as originally discussed.  You might also give some thought to dropping the push pull top.  At 10 fans, you can do this on Commander + existing PWM hub but I understand if you want to try.  Typical drop on push pull vs push only at 300W is -1C at speeds of 1300 rpm and more.  Where it has more benefit is if you lock the fans down below 800 rpm.  There you might see a 3-5C difference, but the problem is this is in part because the deltas are huge at +13-18C if you pin the fans at slow speed.  Most users rather than do that will let them get up to 1000 rpm.  1000 rpm x 3 fans beats 6 push-pull at 700 rpm always and is still very low for noise.  Most push-pull installs belong on thick or high density radiators.  These are not typical consumer radiators and one example of this is the Hardware Labs GT-R series.  Those types of thick, dense radiators are miserable at low speeds and only come to the top at speeds of 1800 rpm+.  That's not the ideal set-up for most of us, but that is a clear example of a radiator where you want push pull.  A 30mm thick AIO radiator is not like that at all and is designed to work well with lower fan speeds.  

 

If you have a H150i XT, then you have the prior ML-Pro grey fans and more of those would be a good match.  I would try it with what you have for now.  

[Nahemoth]

Thank you for the advises!

I'm going to order a Commander Pro for trying to configure everything from iCue. I saw that the GPU temperatures are also available from iCue, and maybe some of the fans could be controlled based on that variable, so they can help the GPU. 

[c-attack]

Gpu temp is not a perfect control variable as you will see sudden shifts in gpu temp-load when you go to loading or map screens. You don’t need the case fans to slow down at that point for 5 seconds and then ramp back up. Also when CUE is not running, no gpu temp data and the fans will max out. 
 

The best option is to use one of the temp probes in the C-Pro box. You stick it somewhere near the rear exhaust, inside or outside the case. This then measures exhaust air temp which is a great indicator of whether you need more fan speed. Gpu heating up the case?  Exit air temps increase and front and rear fans speed up. This also will work at all times, CUE running or not because the controller can read the native sensor without software. You’ll have to learn your normal exit air temperature range and it will be different in Winter vs Summer, but this gets you the smooth and steady controlled fan changes you want. 

[Nahemoth]

It makes sense, once I get the Commander Pro I will do some tests with the temperature probe.

Do you recommend using part of the case fans with the probe, and the rest with the coolant temperature?

[c-attack]

If the radiator is top mounted, I would let those run on H150i Temp (coolant). They will speed up with sustained cpu load or general case temp increases. Front and rear fans would run from the temp probe. Their main job to facilitate case air exchange and they work together on that. 
 

Where it’s a bit trickier is if you front mount the radiator as intake. Now the front fans can’t be so independent and they help with air intake. In that type of case it’s tempting to set your fans to a fixed speed prior to gaming to ensure you have adequate air exchange. 

[Nahemoth]

Mine is top mounted, so it is quite clear how to proceed.

Thanks!

[Nahemoth]

Surprisingly, today arrived the Commander Pro and installed as we had spoken. 

Now it runs as the most silent system I have ever owned. In any case I want to tune the curves, specially for case fans using the temperature probe.