850 watts not enough?!

[UncleDippy]

First of all, early happy August to everyone! So I'm building a new pc since I upgraded my wife's with my old cpu and motherboard and I've run into a strange issue I've never had. Here's a breakdown of all the components :

ryzen 5600x (corsair water block)

Gigabyte B550 Auros master

EVGA 3080 (ek water block)

Corsair XD5

EVGA 850 80+ gold psu

Lian li o11 dynamic XL

32 gigs of vengeance pro ram at 3600mhz

10 QL 120s

2 commander pros

2 rgb hubs (came with the fans)

2 360s

In one hub, I had 4 exhaust fans and the XD5 and their rgb hub. In the other, 6 intake fans and their rgb hub. Both pros plugged into USB ports on the motherboard. 

So, when I went to fill the system, I noticed that the water wasn't actually moving past the gpu (the run goes pump-gpu- radiator-cpu- radiator- pump), yet all the rgb fans were lit. I thought this was curious. Even more so when I noticed that only the intake fans were actually spinning. So, I pulled the number 6 intake fan, and plugged in the pump. Pump worked. Oh, this is also relevant. The computer was plugged into a strip before. This time, I had to plug it directly into the wall. So, computer filled, ran for 12 hours leak testing. I decide to close everything up and install windows. It cuts on for a brief second, then instantly cuts back off. The rams' rgb is still running, which I'm guessing means there's auxiliary power getting to the board, but not enough to power it. This psu previously ran a 3600, x570 board, same 3080,same hydro x set up, and 8 ML 120s (no rgb). However, only a single pro was used. To troubleshoot, I put it in my wife's computer(3600, x570, H150i, 2 sticks of vengeance at 16 gigs). It powered everything perfectly! So I've narrowed it down to either there's an issue with running 2 pros, or 850 watts isn't enough power. Which is baffling! I have a 1000 watt being delivered tomorrow and will update this thread with my findings. Any suggestions are of course welcome! I just made this in case someone else runs into this issue and I get this figured it, it may help someone in the future!

TLDR; 850 watt psu worked in old  system, doesn't work in new system that has one extra commander pro and 2 extra fans

Profuse apologies for the long read!

[c-attack]

It's not the total wattage on the PSU.  The pump theoretically could use 30W at maximum (probably less on direct measurement) and the fans 3.6W at full speed.  So just over 60W on the 12v rail with pump at fans at maximum.  There is a separate draw on the 5v rail for all the RGB, but that PSU is listed at 24A on the 5v and I am running a similar level of RGB fans and blocks and it is nowhere close to the total limit.  However, we have seen people run into issues when loading up a particular multi-connector SATA cable from the PSU with too much stuff on either the 12 or 5v rail.

 

1) Two Commander Pros should not be an issue.  Lots of people are doing this and the power level will depend on what's connected.  You certainly are not overloaded on either device, but is what's connected to it that will determine load.

2) The XD5 gets its power from the molex and the PWM/tach wire only sends a speed.  If you try and fill with it connected, it will run the last known speed.  In a default out of the box Commander, that is probably too slow to fill anything.  Once you remove the PWM/tach wire, then it reverts to maximum and shouldn't have much trouble filling up.  That said, there are a lot of reasons anyone can have trouble gets the flow going, but it usually does not revolve around power delivery to the pump.  Air pockets, pressure, and gravity are almost always the things in the way.  

 

I think this clears those two components, but still have questions about the Commander that stopped the fans from spinning.  I would start by looking at how all the devices are arranged on the various SATA connections.  Even if the totals are technically under the maximum, I tend to split groups of devices so I don't end up with all the RGB on one SATA/PSU cable or all the 12v power on another.  Your Commanders are doing double duty as fan controller (12v) and RGB controller (5v), so I would probably split them onto different SATA lines.  Watch out if you have some higher speed HDDs in the back as they can draw on all the power rails and throw off your estimates. 

 

It also occurred to me you may be using the Lighting Node Core devices from the QL multipacks instead of Commander Pro RGB channels + RGB Lighting Hub.  If so, then the 12v and 5v loads are split with the Commander mostly using 12v for fans and some light 5v for the XD5 or any other device connected to its channels.  The LNC will have the larger chunk of 5v load with the QL fans.  Too much 5v draw on one SATA ribbon can cause the PSU to shut down.

 

**Also, be very careful about "hot plugging" the XD5 tach sensor into the Commander or anything else, even when in the 24 pin jumper power state.  There were a lot of blown XD5 and Commanders early on, although it hasn't come up in a while.  Hopefully that means things were strengthened, but I still suggest not doing for the pump.  

 

[HardcoreGames]

I use the HX1000i and it has been able to handle any demands I have imposed easily

850W should be find with one power pig video card

 

[UncleDippy]

11 hours ago, c-attack said:

It's not the total wattage on the PSU.  The pump theoretically could use 30W at maximum (probably less on direct measurement) and the fans 3.6W at full speed.  So just over 60W on the 12v rail with pump at fans at maximum.  There is a separate draw on the 5v rail for all the RGB, but that PSU is listed at 24A on the 5v and I am running a similar level of RGB fans and blocks and it is nowhere close to the total limit.  However, we have seen people run into issues when loading up a particular multi-connector SATA cable from the PSU with too much stuff on either the 12 or 5v rail.

 

1) Two Commander Pros should not be an issue.  Lots of people are doing this and the power level will depend on what's connected.  You certainly are not overloaded on either device, but is what's connected to it that will determine load.

2) The XD5 gets its power from the molex and the PWM/tach wire only sends a speed.  If you try and fill with it connected, it will run the last known speed.  In a default out of the box Commander, that is probably too slow to fill anything.  Once you remove the PWM/tach wire, then it reverts to maximum and shouldn't have much trouble filling up.  That said, there are a lot of reasons anyone can have trouble gets the flow going, but it usually does not revolve around power delivery to the pump.  Air pockets, pressure, and gravity are almost always the things in the way.  

 

I think this clears those two components, but still have questions about the Commander that stopped the fans from spinning.  I would start by looking at how all the devices are arranged on the various SATA connections.  Even if the totals are technically under the maximum, I tend to split groups of devices so I don't end up with all the RGB on one SATA/PSU cable or all the 12v power on another.  Your Commanders are doing double duty as fan controller (12v) and RGB controller (5v), so I would probably split them onto different SATA lines.  Watch out if you have some higher speed HDDs in the back as they can draw on all the power rails and throw off your estimates. 

 

It also occurred to me you may be using the Lighting Node Core devices from the QL multipacks instead of Commander Pro RGB channels + RGB Lighting Hub.  If so, then the 12v and 5v loads are split with the Commander mostly using 12v for fans and some light 5v for the XD5 or any other device connected to its channels.  The LNC will have the larger chunk of 5v load with the QL fans.  Too much 5v draw on one SATA ribbon can cause the PSU to shut down.

 

**Also, be very careful about "hot plugging" the XD5 tach sensor into the Commander or anything else, even when in the 24 pin jumper power state.  There were a lot of blown XD5 and Commanders early on, although it hasn't come up in a while.  Hopefully that means things were strengthened, but I still suggest not doing for the pump.  

 

Ok so, I came home and checked my wiring. I'm using 3 different sata ports on the psu and each pro is on a separate one as is each rgb hub. I decided for bleeps and giggles to unplug the rgb hubs and see if it would start then. Still only clicks and doesn't cut on. I unplugged the sata connection to the rgb strip on the case. Still nothing. I'm stumped lol

 

Edit: the rgb on the ram still lights up though

Edited July 27, 2021 by UncleDippy
Added info

[DevBiker]

The RGB on the RAM tells you that the +5V Stand By is enabled. Since it works on the other machine, it's not going to be the PSU but something specific to that particular build. It almost sounds like it's detecting a short or another issue.

[HardcoreGames]

5V standby is also sent to the front USB ports so that mobile phones can be charged etc with the rig powered down

My RM650 has enough 5V standby to charge 2 phones

[UncleDippy]

Ok so I came home today and my 1000watt psu had arrived. So, I unplugged the old one, plugged in the new one and used all the included cables and my baby is up and running! Can't explain it guys but more power did the trick. Or seemingly so anyway. I still have to test it with a few games and make sure they're no crashes or anything but all seems well as of now!

[DevBiker]

And did you use all of the included cables with the previous one?

Regardless, glad that you are up and running! 🙂

[UncleDippy]

49 minutes ago, DevBiker said:

And did you use all of the included cables with the previous one?

Regardless, glad that you are up and running! 🙂

Yes* My wife's psu is semi modular. The 850 was fully and I kept the cables in separate boxes. With that said however, there's a lot of cables floating about between the two..... hence the asterisk lol

[DevBiker]

33 minutes ago, UncleDippy said:

Yes* My wife's psu is semi modular. The 850 was fully and I kept the cables in separate boxes. With that said however, there's a lot of cables floating about between the two..... hence the asterisk lol

That does make me wonder ... using the wrong cable can absolutely cause a short circuit. And most PSUs today will detect that on startup and shut down - which is what your problem sounded like. I don't know what EVGA's cable and pinouts are at all ... and just because 2 PSUs are from the same maker doesn't mean that they have the same connector pinouts. Corsair does a good job with this - most of their cables are cross compatible with other Corsair PSUs and they post the compatibility chart. That's a big part of why EVERY PSU in my house is Corsair ... so I don't have to worry about that mess.

Edited July 29, 2021 by DevBiker

[HardcoreGames]

EVGA cable pinouts are different from Corsair