iCue custom fan curve based on rpm only?

Hi,

I just got a commander pro, amazing little device. If I have to invest the cpu cycles for RGB than why not using it for controlling the case fans at the same time (instead of using additional software) :) And it also has spare usb2 ports.

But one problem I have with it, I wanted to set a custom curve but I noticed that I can only set the rpm in relation to the temperature and not %. And I don't understand the logic behind this, I have two noctua 140mm (which are 1500 rpm) at the front and ML pro 120mm at the back (which is 2400 rpm). when I do a "quiet" curve (max 1500 rpm at 40c and stays there) and my gpu is only at 33c it actually takes the noctua fans to almost max speed (because they top at 1500 rpm)

It should be based on % and not rpm, this way the speed would be relatively equal on all fans.

Am i missing something? is there a way to change this to be based on %?

So right now I am just doing a fixed % profile..but I really wanted to do a curve based control so I don't have to change profiles every time I am about to do something intensive.

No, for programmable fan curves the Commander use RPM as the control point and not PWM %. It really doesn't matter as long as everyone involved sticks to specifications. Unfortunately, there seems to be some variance in this and some fans react erratically.

I am not sure I exactly understand your issue. You can set an unlimited number of fan curves. You can set one for front, one for the rear, or a unique curve for every fan in the case that is individually controllable. If you mean you have been using the "Quiet, Balanced, or Extreme" presets, stop that now and make your own curve. The default curves are linked to CPU temperature, but only because its the one guaranteed variable in every system. It doesn't make a lot of sense for any type of fan control, except an actual air cooler and I would probably use the MB CPU fan header for that. Better control source choices are GPU temp or coolant temperature (H1xx Temp) if you have a Corsair AIO. The best choice is to run one of those 10K thermistor temp sensors to the rear exhaust. That is the native sensor for the controller and it will follow it at all times, software running or not. No more fan blast on boot, shutdown, etc. It does require you to learn you normal temp range for that specific spot. You need a large enough temp range to make control meaningful and smooth, but not close enough to touch anything. For most people, the GPU is the largest source of heat in the case.

Hi,

I will try to explain myself better. I already saw that the "out of the box" fan curves in the software (quiet, balanced, extreme) you can't change the heat source, although the programmers can set the cpu as default (for the reason you mentioned) and the software can then search for other viable heat sources in the machine (like GPU, motherboard, etc'). just an idea for future improvements..

but anyway, this wasn't my point..I tried to do a "custom" curve of my own based on the GPU temp, and in the left side of the graph you can set the rpm up or down, but for the rear fan 1500 rpm is 50% and for my front fans 1500 rpm is 100%.

So that would make me do another dedicated graphs for each fan type based on its rpm, while if the graph would be based on % I can simply set the same curve for all the fans at once.

Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

see in @DevBiker video (starting from 5:35) what I mean. when he set a curve for H115 the graph is actually showing in PWM % but later when he talks about the commander pro it is changing to RPM only. why is that?

this is the video: [ame]

Why can't it be based on PWM% as well?? I just don't get it. Almost every fan control software I know of uses %.

That doesn’t change your predicament. First, you have fans with drastically different max speeds. PWM% isn’t going to make them run all the same speed. You still need to set a specific fan curve for each fan type or location, like everyone does already. Second, even if you did have “all 1500 rpm fans”, unless they are identical 80% on one 1500 rpm fan does not necessarily equal 80% on another 1500 rpm model. PWM % is rarely linear and this is the variance I was referring to above. Most people understand RPM. I am not sure a large portion of the population is better served by having to a math calculation when setting their fan speeds — elementary as it may be.

The various AIO coolers have different partner OEM’s. Some use PWM%. All of them have their own onboard fan controller unique to that specific cooler, so it doesn’t really apply here. Frankly this seems like a lot of effort to get out of making a second fan curve in a system that willingly lets you do it. That’s a 15 second job and the ability of a controller to create and apply and number of user defined fan curves is the entire point of having a software controller.

PWM% isn’t going to make them run all the same speed. You still need to set a specific fan curve for each fan type or locationcontroller.

I don't necessarily agree, cause if I do a fixed 40% (which iCue allows me to do) than I can apply this to ALL fan types in my system, no matter their specific rpm rating. In that case the 2400 rpm fan will spin at around 960 rpm and the 1500 rpm ones will be at around 600..

I think that most people understand % better, cause they know that they want 100% fan speed when the GPU reaches 60c ..and only 30% when the GPU is at 30c etc'

And it's doesn't matter if one fan can go up to 1500 and the other one only to 1450 (-+10% variation is almost always exists).. the relative % will always apply.

Why make people investigate their fans RPM rating..why not make it universal?

I think that's the reason why most fan control softwares go by % and not pure RPM.

Again,I hope you understand what I am saying, my english is not the best.

in fact, I did a fixed 40% ("quiet mode") and applied it to all my fans and it is working pretty good. I can do another 70% one for more intensive computing tasks.

But this approach requires me to change it every time... If I want a more "sophisticated" fan curve I need to make it dynamic.

So what I did, I simply copied a Gigabyte UEFI fan curve (see attached image) and just "translated" it to RPM relative to my noctua and ML fan ratings.

So in the noctua case the 100% is 1500 rpm..but who can guarantee that is will actually go to 1500 rpm? last time I checked it tops at 1430 or something..

So IMHO this whole RPM based system is not accurate and should be optional. percentage based graphs are better.

Hi,

So I just measured the rpm rating (30%, 70%, 100%) for each case fan in my system (only 3 fortunately) and I made a curve based on the image I posted above.

But you DO realize that if iCue (commander pro) graphs was based on pwm% (instead of actual rpm) it would be much easier and faster to make these curves. It would have saved me the trouble of measuring the fans (as enriching process as it was).

People should not go through this trouble just to make a simple fan curve.

Please corsair! add an option to change the left side of the graph to pwm% (just like in the AIO graph, why you decided to go with actual rpm for the commander pro is beyond me).

iCue is near perfect for me, you even added option to turn the fans RGB 90 degrees to prevent reinstalling! that's amazing feature. I know you can do it!

And please try add an option to base the curves on two sensors, for example: max(CPU,GPU) etc'.. it only a simple algorithm that always checks the highest between the two.

If someone here can please pass those requests for the dev team it would be very much appreciated.

Thanks!

:)

Let me explain again. I wanted to make a custom fan curve for my case fans. It starts at 30% fan speed at 20c (GPU temp) and gradually increasing until it reaches 50c which it is than at 70% speed. And than sharper increase to 100% at 60c.

You open Icue custom fan curve in commander pro, and you get a graph with RPM numbers on the left and temperature numbers on the buttom.

How could I know what is the % of my fan speed? Only way is to start measuring the speed in the software (or just make a rough calculation).

Am I missing something?

:)

Let me explain again. I wanted to make a custom fan curve for my case fans. It starts at 30% fan speed at 20c (GPU temp) and gradually increasing until it reaches 50c which it is than at 70% speed. And than sharper increase to 100% at 60c.

You open Icue custom fan curve in commander pro, and you get a graph with RPM numbers on the left and temperature numbers on the buttom.

How could I know what is the % of my fan speed? Only way is to start measuring the speed in the software (or just make a rough calculation).

Am I missing something?

Why don’t you simply set the fans to 100% and see how many RPM iCUE reads?

Then just calculate % should be easy...

Baio

Why don’t you simply set the fans to 100% and see how many RPM iCUE reads?

Then just calculate % should be easy...

 

Baio

Why not make the program work with pwm% like any other fan monitoring software on the planet? wouldn't it saves me the extra work?

It is much more easier to work with %.

Except, even if you measure the rpm in the software you almost always gonna miss by a few rpm's because if you set for example 50%, the number fluctuates in the software, you can't actually pinpoint the actual number.

And even..even if you agree to settle for an avarage number, let's say 1400 rpm for 100%, 30% is not guaranteed to be the exact 30% of 1400.. the line is not linear. Believe me I checked it so many times in the last few days.

Working with actual rpm is only for certain situations and should be optional. working with % is so much easier and logical for most people.

So ...

When I first got the Commander Pro, I had the same thought that you had. Because that's how it's 'always been done'. Well, just because that's how something has always been done and it's what you are used to doesn't mean that it's any better.

If you think about it, control by RPM makes a lot more sense and gives you more precise and granular control.

PWM % is absolutely meaningless when it comes to control. What percentage corresponds to what speed? How do I know if 50% PWM will give the right airflow? In fact, what fan speed is 50%? Is it too high? The PWM curves aren't linear and aren't consistent between different fans, even from the same maker. Control by fan speed, however, takes this variable out of the equation. This gives you a better idea of a) how much air you'll actually be pushing around and b) how much noise you'll actually make. This is why many modern motherboards have fan tuning functionality in place ... they have to control on PWM so they need to test (and tune) the fan to find the RPMs that a particular PWM % corresponds to. They'll even give you a table mapping PWM % to RPM. Now, why would they do that if they didn't already realize that fan speed, rather than PWM, is a better indicator of noise and airflow levels?

Granted, it's different and takes some getting used to. Once you do, it makes more sense. The Corsair AIO's all use PWM % as the control variable and after getting comfortable with the paradigm shift from the CoPro, I hate it. I've no clue what my fan RPM is going to be nor any idea of the amount of noise that it'll generate when I set the fan curves. I have to set the PWM to see what my fan speed will be and then adjust accordingly. But still, it's different and people tend to resist any kind of change. We see a similar thing when people try to control all of the fan speeds based on CPU temperature ... because that's what they've done because that used to be the only option available. But in many cases, especially when water cooling is in the mix, fan speeds based on CPU temperature aren't very useful and don't reflect the actual cooling needs of the system.

First of all thanks for the reply, very appreciated.

And from your angle you are probably right, you made some good points.

But I still think that for most average users, including me, RPM doesn't actually mean anything. people don't know how much noise 1400 rpm makes (only after they physically spin their fan at that speed in the machine..but same goes for %) and they don't do the "airflow math" to get a positive or negative pressure..etc'. "more or less" is good enough.

So you just spin your fans at a certain % and see how much noise/cooling performance you get until you settle for whatever feels satisfactory.

And also, the fact that fans are not exactly equal (even if they share the same specs/ same model) it still doesn't matter for most users (and the difference is usually neglectable anyway). All you know is that you want to get 40% at idle and go full blown 100% if your GPU reaches 80c :)

I simple wanted to use the software pre-baked curves for convenience (is that too much too ask?), but the rpm doesn't match my fans, it takes them all the way to 100%.

I think that at least the program should do a "calibration" of some sort to get a picture of each fan rpm rating.

OR... simply give the option to use pwm% (they already have a fixed % option).

Why not make the program work with pwm% like any other fan monitoring software on the planet? wouldn't it saves me the extra work?

It is much more easier to work with %.

 

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Working with actual rpm is only for certain situations and should be optional. working with % is so much easier and logical for most people.

It has been asked for before and I agree that setting a percentage would be desirable. It's not as if the Commander Pro doesn't understand how to do this as you can set a fixed speed (like I do for my PWM D5 pump) expressed as a percentage. As far as I know, there's no extra calculations required for 4 pin fans; supply +12V, send out the PWM signal on the 4th wire denoting the requested percentage of maximum revs and leave it to the fan to react.

For example, I have a mix of ML120 & ML140 fans on my radiators for my custom loop which respond to fluid temperature. As the Commander Pro can only build a custom curve using RPMs, I was required to build two sets of curves (EKquiet1x0mm, EKbalanced1x0mm & EKextreme1x0mm); one group for the 120mm and a second group for the 140mm fans. If I were able to specify a percentage, I'd only need a single set of custom curves. Of course, this feature would only be of use with 4 pin PWM fans as 3 pin fans have no way of communicating their capabilities (maximum revs and working minimum voltage) to the Commander Pro. As such, a check would need to be made before applying a PWM custom curve to a port to ensure a PWM 4 pin fan is connected to that port (either set to 4 pin or if left on "auto", when the port was checked when the Commander Pro was initialised at boot).

Good point, I know that also 3 pin fans can be controlled by voltage.

you can set a % just like you would with 4 pin pwm fans.

First of all thanks for the reply, very appreciated.

And from your angle you are probably right, you made some good points.

But I still think that for most average users, including me, RPM doesn't actually mean anything. people don't know how much noise 1400 rpm makes (only after they physically spin their fan at that speed in the machine..but same goes for %) and they don't do the "airflow math" to get a positive or negative pressure..etc'. "more or less" is good enough.

So you just spin your fans at a certain % and see how much noise/cooling performance you get until you settle for whatever feels satisfactory.

While I agree with you that few do "airflow math", I'd argue that PWM percentage has even less meaning to the average user than RPM does. PWM % changes aren't linear, not by a long shot. And they can do the same process with RPM that you describe with percentage. Except ... well, the RPM gives them a better idea, ahead of time, how much noise it's gonna make.

Again, this still sounds like "this is what we've always done so it must be the way to do it".

And also, the fact that fans are not exactly equal (even if they share the same specs/ same model) it still doesn't matter for most users (and the difference is usually neglectable anyway). All you know is that you want to get 40% at idle and go full blown 100% if your GPU reaches 80c :)

And why is that? What does that even mean?

I simple wanted to use the software pre-baked curves for convenience (is that too much too ask?), but the rpm doesn't match my fans, it takes them all the way to 100%.

Yeah ... that's an issue. The pre-baked curves use CPU temp (because that's the only one guaranteed to be there) and they are basically worthless. I'm not sure if there's a good solution to this though. What source temp should they use? CPU is the only guarantee. What RPM range? That's an even bigger issue. How would you solve this? :confused:

I think that at least the program should do a "calibration" of some sort to get a picture of each fan rpm rating.

I'd love to see this as well. And for the plot where you configure the fans to adjust according to the calibrated max speed. And to have a re-calibrate for when you change the fan. That'd be cool.

OR... simply give the option to use pwm% (they already have a fixed % option).

From what I understand, the additional issue is that the CoPro's fan controller can do fixed % but not a curve based on percentage. The other question, however, is this - even if it can be done, should it? Is it the right thing to do? Yeah, it's what people are used to but if we stuck with what people were used to, we'd all still be running an 8088 with MFM/RLL drives. Or limited to single cores. Or spindle drives. Or Windows 3.1. Or ... the horror of it all ... still stuck with pen and paper. The list goes on and on. The idea of the CoPro was (IMHO) to bring a new level of control over the system cooling to the PC enthusiast.

It's tech. Change happens. Embrace it. Roll with it. Love it. :cool:

Good point, I know that also 3 pin fans can be controlled by voltage.

you can set a % just like you would with 4 pin pwm fans.

Except that not all 3 pin fans are created equal... starting voltages (when the fan can actually spin) varies greatly.

PS. DevBiker - all good points and to tell the truth, I've become very used to working with RPMs over the last 2 years anyway (Excel macros can make things quite easy).

@DevBiker

Great info man, thanks a lot. I just wanted to further clear something that you probably didn't understand me completely.

The iCue software offers presets for fan curves (quiet,balanced,extreme). I wanted to use the balanced preset for my case fans based on GPU temperature. So far so good..

So I went into the commander pro's tab on the software, and than to "performance" tab and added a new custom curve (I am not talking about the presets that are based on the cpu package temperature) and on the top right side you can choose between "quiet", "balanced" , "extreme" (you have 3 buttons)... But they are based on RPM and not PWM%, 0 - 2500 rpm of I'm not mistaken..

because I have different fans in my system, each one with different RPM rating, I can't use those presets. BUT, if they would use % than I can apply the "balanced" curve to all my fans in one single click.. Understand me?

Actully I don't really understand why they even put thoses presets in the first place, it is useless if people can't use it for their fans. It's like they are designed to very specific fan. Just open a new custom curve in the commander pro and see what I mean.

An also, I think the reason why the AIO's curves are still based on % is because they know people like to change the stock fans to whatever they like, and they must make the fan curve go with % so it can universally fit to all fans!

Am I right?

@DevBiker

Great info man, thanks a lot. I just wanted to further clear something that you probably didn't understand me completely.

The iCue software offers presets for fan curves (quiet,balanced,extreme). I wanted to use the balanced preset for my case fans based on GPU temperature. So far so good..

So I went into the commander pro's tab on the software, and than to "performance" tab and added a new custom curve (I am not talking about the presets that are based on the cpu package temperature) and on the top right side you can choose between "quiet", "balanced" , "extreme" (you have 3 buttons)... But they are based on RPM and not PWM%, 0 - 2500 rpm of I'm not mistaken..

because I have different fans in my system, each one with different RPM rating, I can't use those presets. BUT, if they would use % than I can apply the "balanced" curve to all my fans in one single click.. Understand me?

I do but my position doesn't change. It's what you are used to. I was in the same position as you about 2-3 years ago or so. Percentage is meaningless and not the ideal way to manage fan curves. As for the presets - they are useless, no question. They might be mildly more useful if you could control the source temp but the range of source temp could vary so greatly that this, too, would likely be useless.

Universally applying a percentage across different fans is even more meaningless than just using percentage with one fan. There's no coordination of them, no way to balance them, etc. 50% on one fan has no bearing on 50% on another ... which you seem to realize but haven't made the leap to understanding the futility of it ... preferring, instead, to cling tightly to PWM percentage.

An also, I think the reason why the AIO's curves are still based on % is because they know people like to change the stock fans to whatever they like, and they must make the fan curve go with % so it can universally fit to all fans!

Am I right?

Nope, it's a limitation of the controller and the controller's capability for a stored (hardware) fan curve. It's something that I've had several discussions with Corsair folks about here on the forum and at shows. It's a limitation of the CoPro's controller too and, while I resisted it at first, after using it for 2-3 years on a number of different systems (CoPros are in 4 different systems in my home now), I have far more precise control over noise vs cooling with RPM. BTW, this includes systems with a mix of fan types, including ML Platinum RGB and QL in push/pull on the same radiator - so about as different as you can get. There is no way that I'd want to control those with PWM percentage.

We covered that in one of the other posts. The three presets in the Commander custom curve section match the AIO fan curve based on coolant temperature. This is so a user with a radiator occupied intake or exhaust can balance the opposing case fan speeds to match. Or simply because they choose to run them that way. They temperature values will clearly not match standard CPU or GPU temperature. It is coolant temperature based.

Presets in general have a limited value. We all have different fans, with different max speeds, different noise preferences, different hardware, different loads. There is no universal preset of data points that is perfect for all or even a majority of people. The best user experience is always going to be the one they design for themselves based on their preferences.

Setting your curves by PWM % requires explicit understanding of the behavior of every fan in your system. Yes, you can learn it. I probably still remember most of them for the hundreds of fans I have tested in the last 15 years. However, every time I see a PWM %, the first thing I am going to do in my mind is change it back to RPM so I can compare it for noise and cooling effectiveness. PWM % means nothing without the fan's maximum limit and even then, many are not overly linear.

You are going to a lot of trouble to avoid using multiple fan curves. This is what software controllers are for -- creating unique 'prefect for that fan' kind of control. Once you program the curves, do you need to change them? You certainly can. It might two or three clicks instead of one, but that is still far fewer than the number of keystrokes in this post alone. I think you have zoomed in too far on this issue. Just set it up with RPM values. If you are not sure what they should be, experiment and find out. Small differences in fan speed have little effect on cooling. They can have a noise effect. Let that be your guide.

I have a CommanderPro which I love as a little controller for the fans in my custom loop. However, I also have six Lian Li Uni Fans. These fans have some very nice RGB and a cute daisy chain system... they also come with their own little controller. The Lian Li controller can take a PWM signal from another source to set the speeds of the attached fans, however, the connector from the Lian Li controller to the PWM source only has a single wire (i.e. it does not have a "tach" wire to report back RPM to the thing producing the PWM signal). Attached is the wiring diagram (my red circle showing the signal wire).

What this means is that I can't control my Lian Li fans from my CommanderPro at all, since the CommanderPro only lets me build customer curves of RPM vs Temperature... but since the Lian Li controller doesn't report back speed, it means that the CommanderPro always thinks those fans aren't spinning and keeps increasing the internal PWM signal.

While I agree with @DevBiker's points about percentage being a bad control variable since a fan's response to PWM percent is highly non-linear; in my case, since I don't have speed reported back, I actually do need to be able to build a curve that's at a lower level of abstraction. I.e. I need to build a PWM Percent vs. Temperature control curve.