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Old 10-21-2012, 03:01 PM
BorisTheSpider BorisTheSpider is offline
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Default AX1200i OCP - does it protect against a short?

I have asked this elsewhere, but I wanted to make a separate thread for it so it didn't get mixed-up with other issues or cause confusion.

I asked earlier, in http://forum.corsair.com/v3/showthread.php?p=606307 whether or not it was necessary for the Corsair Link software to be running for multi-rail mode on the AX1200i to be active. RAM GUY confirmed that the software does have to be running.

He also said:

Quote:
If you start the system with another O.S. other than Window's the PSU will default to its profile as defined by the factory defaults.
Now I'm concerned about something I've been seeing. I have been having numerous false trips of OCP because of erroneous current readings in the software.

When OCP has been tripping in error for me, rather than powering off, the PSU has been resetting the PC, so current continues to flow - it just stops momentarily, and the PC resets as though the reset button on the case had been pressed.

I want to clarify if I'm getting something wrong here, because my understanding at present of what would happen if a real overcurrent happened (a short for example) is this:

1. Overcurrent happens (something shorts out)
2. OCP triggers
3. PC resets
4. OCP is now not active (corsair software not running)
5. 100+ amps goes through the short

Have I got something wrong here?

Is the AX1200i supposed to shut off when OCP trips, or is it supposed to reset like I'm seeing?
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:05 AM
BorisTheSpider BorisTheSpider is offline
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OK, I have something to add that may be relevant to why this is happening.

I shut down to triple-check that I had the "Off after AC power loss" setting switched correctly in the BIOS, so that power would stay off. It was set correctly as I had recalled.

Then I pulled the plug for a few seconds, reinserted and the system stayed off.

Then I powered on, pulled the plug quickly, and reinserted it before the power had drained from the motherboard/psu (the few seconds when the LEDs etc. stay on after wall power has been switched on).

When the plug is reinserted before power has fully drained from the system, it just powers back on.
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Old 10-25-2012, 05:43 PM
BorisTheSpider BorisTheSpider is offline
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BUMP

Can someone at Corsair clarify whether the behaviour I'm seeing is abnormal - if it is not, it makes multi-rail mode useless so it's quite important that we clarify this.
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Old 10-25-2012, 05:56 PM
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Borris
I told you on another thread that we are looking into this...
Please DO NO Double post...
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Old 10-29-2012, 02:17 PM
BorisTheSpider BorisTheSpider is offline
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This is not a double post.

This thread is about an entirely separate issue.

You are referring to http://forum.corsair.com/v3/showthread.php?t=111660 where you said you are looking into reports of the current readings being incorrect.

This thread is about the fact that multi-rail OCP does not appear to do anything useful. If it trips, it resets the PC, and hence disables multi-rail OCP.

Is that, or is it not the case?
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:08 AM
BorisTheSpider BorisTheSpider is offline
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Bump. Now that I have confirmed that this is not a duplicate post, please can someone address the question in the first post.
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Old 11-01-2012, 12:23 PM
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The ATX design provides for Short detection but only when in soft off and before the system is powered on. If something in the circuit shorts after the power in initiated the full power of the respective Rail will be available. So yes there is short protection but it is comprised of the MB and PSU working together.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:15 AM
BorisTheSpider BorisTheSpider is offline
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So are you saying that if a short did occur, that the OCP would trip, that would reset the system, and that there would then be short circuit protection in place?

I'm still confused as to why the OCP tripping is resetting the system rather than turning it off - surely if multi-rail OCP is to have any benefit at all it has to turn the system off, not reboot it????
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Old 11-07-2012, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
So are you saying that if a short did occur, that the OCP would trip
Yes and it should throttle down the rail that is drawing too much power, and send the shut down signal the MB.
But what you have described sounds like there is or may be some other issue with your system. Can you test another PSU on your system?
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Old 11-07-2012, 04:34 PM
BorisTheSpider BorisTheSpider is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAM GUY View Post
Yes and it should throttle down the rail that is drawing too much power, and send the shut down signal the MB.
But what you have described sounds like there is or may be some other issue with your system. Can you test another PSU on your system?
Well I don't know what I could test - the only reason OCP has tripped for me is because of the faulty/spurious current readings that I've been getting (along with the other users that have reported the same faulty readings). If I tried another PSU, it's overcurrent protection wouldn't trip (because there is no real overcurrent happening).

The only option I can think of that would help would be to put my PSU in a different system, then if that exhibited the faulty current readings, make it trip the OCP and see if it reset, or shut off. Unfortunately, I don't have access to a system I could do that on.

I also get the impression that the multi-rail type of OCP in the AX1200i isn't happening in the PSU itself (as the overall 100 amp OCP does), but rather is done through the link software. The reason I get that impression is because the multi-rail OCP doesn't work if the link software isn't running, so I am guessing that what happens is that if the link software reads a current higher than what is set as the OCP trip point for the rail, it does something in software (presumably via the USB link dongle) to tell the PSU to shut down - is this correct?

If we could determine exactly what is supposed to happen when the multi-rail OCP is tripped by the link software (eg. what is it supposed to do exactly in order to shut the PSU down, does it tell the PSU to break the pin-16 PS_ON circuit?) that would help, I think, to track down whether this could be my system, or whether I perhaps have a faulty PSU.

I've asked in another thread if a user experiencing faulty readings could try setting an OCP trip point to force OCP to kick in and see if the system rebooted (like I am seeing) or shut down (like I expect it should), but I didn't get a reply. The thread is this one: http://forum.corsair.com/v3/showthread.php?t=111660 where jan54 referred to getting odd power readings, but I don't know if he's actually seeing the same as me in terms of the PCIe rails over-reading, because his screenshots don't show that.

Have you been able to reproduce the stuck (overreading) pcie rails problem at Corsair? If so, perhaps you could set an OCP trip point and see if the test system reboots vs. shuts off?

Last edited by BorisTheSpider; 11-07-2012 at 04:44 PM.
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  #11  
Old 11-07-2012, 04:42 PM
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We have not seen this issue in our testing so no we have not duplicated the issue. I am waiting for more feed back from Engineering at this point.
And so far you are the only user reporting this issue so beyond that I would suggest using a different PSU to test the system.
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  #12  
Old 11-07-2012, 06:46 PM
BorisTheSpider BorisTheSpider is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAM GUY View Post
We have not seen this issue in our testing so no we have not duplicated the issue. I am waiting for more feed back from Engineering at this point.
And so far you are the only user reporting this issue so beyond that I would suggest using a different PSU to test the system.
Well that's odd, because I found this video of a Corsair employee, George Makris, promoting the AX1200i to a reviewer, where the issue is happening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv7o...layer_embedded

Here's a screenshot from the video, where you can see over 56 amps reported on PCIe1 (over 670 Watts) while the total system power draw is reported at around 150 Watts.



http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...ps24754b55.jpg

If you watch the video, you can see that rail jumps around a lot, but is also stuck a lot at around 56 amps, and is also stuck a lot at 21 amps (still more than the total system power draw reported in the video). Here's a link straight to one point where there's a particularly clear close-up in the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv7o...bedded#t=3m12s

Here's another video, of it doing it in front of another Corsair employee, PR Director Rick Allen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD8u7-vMSzs

In fact, at 2:37 he is pointing to these faulty readings while discussing how you can see the PCIe current delivery:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD8u7-vMSzs#t=2m37s



Did no-one notice that a single PCIe cable was supposedly carrying 670 Watts?

As you can see in this screenshot at 2:28, it's doing it on PCIe1, PCIe2 and PCIe3 with 55.8 Amps reported on each (a total of over 2 kilowatts) while total power output reads 174 Watts.



Surely someone ought to be fetching a fire extinguisher?


These videos were posted in June, and I find it difficult to believe that your testing of a new product has been so limited that you hadn't noticed a glaring issue that was right in front of you during the filming of a promotional video 5+ months ago, nor can you seem to reproduce it now...

Last edited by BorisTheSpider; 05-15-2013 at 06:08 PM.
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  #13  
Old 11-07-2012, 08:29 PM
jonnyguru jonnyguru is offline
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Ok.. everyone stop....

OCP does NOT reset the computer!

If OCP trips, the PSU SHUTS DOWN!!!!!!!

The shut down is actually within the PSU. The only way to reset an OCP shut down in the PSU is to flip the switch on the back of the PSU off and then back on again. So even if your motherboard is set to "power on after power failure" set in the BIOS, it would not power back on or reset, unless you cycle the switch on the back of the power supply first.

I agree with RAMGUY: "...what you have described sounds like there is or may be some other issue with your system." RAM would be my first guess, but the best thing to do is make sure Windows is not set to "Automatically Restart" during a BSOD, which is something you would set in "Startup and Recovery" under "System Properties".

I repeat: a restart is NOT indicative of OCP, OPP, a short, etc. A complete shut down would be and nothing more.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:22 PM
BorisTheSpider BorisTheSpider is offline
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Jonny,

Just to clarify, let me make this absolutely clear - the system does not reboot any other time. I have had no reboots, crashes or any other problems with the system in the last couple of weeks since I turned off the OCP tickboxes in the Corsair Link software. None.

If I were to go into Corsair Link now, where I have a PCIe rail stuck reading 56.1 amps, and tick the box to apply 40 amp OCP on that rail, the system would instantly reboot, just like the reset button on the case had been pressed. Not shut down, not power off. Reboot.

This won't happen any other time, it _only_ happens when OCP is set in Corsair Link, and when a reading exceeds the set OCP trip point.

If the OCP should trip _inside_ the PSU, and shut it down hard so you have to cycle wall-power to it before it will come back on, how can my RAM, a windows setting or any other setting or hardware over-ride that? If the PSU did what you say it _should_ do, and cut the power completely, it would not be possible for it to reboot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyguru View Post
OCP does NOT reset the computer!

If OCP trips, the PSU SHUTS DOWN!!!!!!!

The shut down is actually within the PSU. The only way to reset an OCP shut down in the PSU is to flip the switch on the back of the PSU off and then back on again. So even if your motherboard is set to "power on after power failure" set in the BIOS, it would not power back on or reset, unless you cycle the switch on the back of the power supply first.
Exactly what I would expect. As you said, OCP should happen _inside_ the PSU. However, RAM GUY told me in http://forum.corsair.com/v3/showthread.php?t=111112 that Corsair Link has to be running for the multi-rail OCP trip points to be active, and said that in Linux, at the BIOS or any other time that Corsair Link isn't running, the PSU reverts to what he called "the default profile" which I took to mean it becomes 100 amps single-rail.

If the software has to be running for multi-rail OCP to work, that suggests that the multi-rail OCP does not happen entirely inside the PSU, but rather has something to do with the software.

Perhaps you are able to clarify exactly how the multi-rail mode on the i-series works, ie. what exactly "trips" the OCP - if I set a 30 amp OCP trip point in the software, and that rail detects 35 amps of current, what exactly does the detecting, and how exactly does the protection kick in - does the software have anything to do with tripping that "OCP", and if it doesn't, why must it be running as RAM GUY told me it must?

My guess (and it may be wrong) is that the link software detects the current exceeding the set trip point, and signals the PSU via the link dongle to activate OCP. Just a guess, but it's the best I can figure out based on what I've been told.

Quote:
I agree with RAMGUY: "...what you have described sounds like there is or may be some other issue with your system." RAM would be my first guess, but the best thing to do is make sure Windows is not set to "Automatically Restart" during a BSOD, which is something you would set in "Startup and Recovery" under "System Properties".
Again, if OCP should happen _inside_ the PSU, and should hard power-off the system such that you can't restart it without cycling power to the PSU itself, then it's impossible for this to be related to a windows setting, or to my RAM isn't it?

Last edited by BorisTheSpider; 11-07-2012 at 09:49 PM.
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  #15  
Old 11-07-2012, 10:10 PM
jonnyguru jonnyguru is offline
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I didn't start at Corsair until after the AX1200i.

But I do know the AX1200i and the OCP works the same way as any other OCP. The only difference is that it's a DSP microprocessor versus a supervisor IC.

You set OCP in the link software, and this is set in the DSP, but if this OCP is tripped... like I said, and just like a PSU with a supervisor IC instead of an OCP.... THE PSU WILL HARD TRIP. OCP on ANY PSU doesn't work ANY OTHER WAY. The DSP shuts down the PSU. Not just the mobo via soft off.

The difference between a supervisor IC and DSP when it comes to settings for OCP, OPP, etc. is that the settings to the DSP can be dynamic. The settings for a supervisor IC are done at the factory. This does NOT, however, change how they react.

If the computer is doing a soft off or reset, the problem is something other than the PSU.
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