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  #76  
Old 10-19-2011, 04:14 PM
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Yellowbeard Yellowbeard is offline
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This is NOT stonewalling and has been explained here MANY times before. I'll summarize.

We get RC firmwares from SandForce and qualify them in house. They may or may not pass our internal process. If it does not, we will not release it. If it does pass, then it's a moot point.

We DO NOT discuss this process externally. It creates more issues than it solves if we put up some release date and then don't meet that date or if we encounter delays and issues.

This petition has been noticed. It was posted after the 1.3 firmware and before the 1.3.2 firmware. People accused Corsair of everything from incompetence to dishonesty for not working on a firmware or not announcing an upcoming firmware. Lo and behold, 2.5 days after this was posted, we released the 1.3.2 firmware we had been qual'ing long before this thread was posted.

This petition has not changed our policy.Please be patient and realistic here. Of course we're aware of this issue and of course we're in contact with SandForce about it. But, the policy stands as of now and is not going to change this week. Repeatedly slamming said policy absolutely will not accelerate any firmware qualifications or releases.

Keep this thread on topic.

Again, please be patient.
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  #77  
Old 10-19-2011, 04:53 PM
mdk777 mdk777 is offline
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Yes, I understand you personally are in a spot. Hence my post was directed to the powers who be(whoever thought this was a good policy to implement).

I have seen these situations 100 times. As i mentioned, I am not some 13 year old with no business experience. Being patient has nothing to do with a fundamentally wrong-headed policy.

One is more willing to wait if one sees progress, a plan for addressing a concern.

Not being able to confirm or deny progress is the exact opposite of what you want to communicate if you expect your customers to work with you; if you want your customers to wait patiently for a solution.

Quote:
People accused Corsair of everything from incompetence to dishonesty for not working on a firmware or not announcing an upcoming firmware.
is exactly what I could have predicted would happen from a policy of withholding information. People left with no information will always think the worst.

So, while I was not agreeing with the exact details of the OP petition, I certainly agree that Corsair needs to review its policy regarding what it is willing to discuss with rational customers.

This is not a "slam", it is however a fundamental disagreement.

PS, having paid $300 for a product over 90 days ago, I already considered my patience had performed well beyond the call of duty. ;)

Last edited by mdk777; 10-19-2011 at 05:20 PM.
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  #78  
Old 10-19-2011, 05:58 PM
lxtwin lxtwin is offline
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I understand your frustrations; when I purchased 2 drives (pre 1.3) I had a nightmare with installing Win7 (that I use only for PhotoShop), BSOD, hanging etc.. I upgraded to 1.3 and installed Windows and dual boot with Ubuntu 11.04 and not a glitch, hang or problem at all when I run Linux.

All I am saying is that it is not always the drive hardware but the MB, O/S and drivers can cause issues.

If you don't mind trashing the O/S on the disk, try installing another O/S and see if it is stable, if it is not Linux is quite good at producing error messages when things go wrong and it might point something out.
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  #79  
Old 10-19-2011, 07:34 PM
Serville Serville is offline
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What most people don't see (and Corsair couldnt explain publicly) is the fact:
- Corsair is taking a smart move to let the competitors act as the guinea pigs for the new firmware. If the response is good, they will release it with good assurance that it actually helps users instead of mess things up even worse for them. If the response is bad, they will just let the competitor take the bullet. I think that's what Yellowbeard is trying to say to you....hence NDA.

I think that is a smart move. Corsair users are safer from becoming a guinea pigs. All you have to do is Patience. A little slower but safer firmware update is better. Patience is the key.

I think the whole thing become more complicated due to the fact that firmware upgrade is a one-way ticket for Corsair users.....either to hotter hell or better heaven. If only downgrade is possible (like XXX), then perhaps each person can try out and decide which one to use for the most performance/stability.

I believe Corsair SHOULD think of a way for users to downgrade firmware as an option.
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  #80  
Old 10-19-2011, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serville View Post
Corsair is taking a smart move to let the competitors act as the guinea pigs for the new firmware. If the response is good, they will release it with good assurance that it actually helps users instead of mess things up even worse for them. If the response is bad, they will just let the competitor take the bullet. I think that's what Yellowbeard is trying to say to you....hence NDA.
I think it's a SandForce NDA on Corsair, not one started by Corsair. Also, because most firmware is customized for each company, they're all technically different and as such the guinea pig theory doesn't quite hold water. True there's a lot of similarities, but what sane company would release theirs solely upon the results from an outside source? That's why they do their own testing.


Quote:
I think the whole thing become more complicated due to the fact that firmware upgrade is a one-way ticket for Corsair users.....either to hotter hell or better heaven. If only downgrade is possible (like XXX), then perhaps each person can try out and decide which one to use for the most performance/stability.

I believe Corsair SHOULD think of a way for users to downgrade firmware as an option.
Pretty sure I've seen someone w/ 1.3.2 say they downgraded by simply running the 1.3.0 update tool w/ the appropriate firmware of course.
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  #81  
Old 10-19-2011, 09:39 PM
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SIGNED! Another pissed off customer! I'm way beyond hope of Corsair fixing this problem. Doesn't matter if this is a Sandforce problem or not. That is between you and them, however I purchased YOUR PRODUCT and you can't fix it in a timely matter. I expect a full refund in this case. Corsair won't even consider this as an option.

Last edited by dirtrat; 10-19-2011 at 09:43 PM.
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  #82  
Old 10-19-2011, 10:41 PM
antandshell antandshell is offline
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So does every other ssd maker who has a sandforce controller. AS MUCH AS I AGREE WITH THE COMPLAINTS this is a SANDFORCE ISSUE!!! There controller is responsible for all the failures from corsair to ********. It is an immature product that we all jumped on for the speeds. If there is anyone who needs a petition its SANDFORCE!!! and trust me i am no corsair fan-boy. I go with who ever makes it best. AND it ain't sandforce! but do we have a freaking choice? I cant say the competitions name?!!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellowbeard View Post
This is NOT stonewalling and has been explained here MANY times before. I'll summarize.

We get RC firmwares from SandForce and qualify them in house. They may or may not pass our internal process. If it does not, we will not release it. If it does pass, then it's a moot point.

We DO NOT discuss this process externally. It creates more issues than it solves if we put up some release date and then don't meet that date or if we encounter delays and issues.

This petition has been noticed. It was posted after the 1.3 firmware and before the 1.3.2 firmware. People accused Corsair of everything from incompetence to dishonesty for not working on a firmware or not announcing an upcoming firmware. Lo and behold, 2.5 days after this was posted, we released the 1.3.2 firmware we had been qual'ing long before this thread was posted.

This petition has not changed our policy.Please be patient and realistic here. Of course we're aware of this issue and of course we're in contact with SandForce about it. But, the policy stands as of now and is not going to change this week. Repeatedly slamming said policy absolutely will not accelerate any firmware qualifications or releases.

Keep this thread on topic.

Again, please be patient.
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  #83  
Old 10-19-2011, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antandshell View Post
So does every other ssd maker who has a sandforce controller. AS MUCH AS I AGREE WITH THE COMPLAINTS this is a SANDFORCE ISSUE!!! There controller is responsible for all the failures from corsair to ********. It is an immature product that we all jumped on for the speeds. If there is anyone who needs a petition its SANDFORCE!!! and trust me i am no corsair fan-boy. I go with who ever makes it best. AND it ain't sandforce! but do we have a freaking choice? I cant say the competitions name?!!!!
The forum filter is covered in the rules.
This isn't the place for a SandForce petition and as such your post was removed. If that's how you feel I'd suggest a neutral forum.
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  #84  
Old 10-20-2011, 02:54 AM
biatche biatche is offline
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Do you tell one to be patient when he has a nail in his ***? That's just bad policy. Anyway, I'm RMAing mine.
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  #85  
Old 10-20-2011, 04:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkgaro View Post
...
I read the news that sandforce has finally confirmed a bug for Blue Screen of Death,
and that another company has already released the fix to their customers.
What about corsair ? not one announcement .... seriously corsair???

Obviously every company has their own right on how to handle public and customer relations ... and that is fine... but I've had enough so I also have the right not to buy another Corsair product.

Corsair you have definitely lost me as future customer.

Very nice job on your PR {sarcasm}
This is a good example of how a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Here is a quote from a major hardware technology review web site about this situation:

"After months of end user complaints, SandForce has finally duplicated, verified and provided a fix for the infamous BSOD/disconnect issue that affected SF-2200 based SSDs... ******** has been testing the fix in-house for the past three weeks and now believes it is fit for public release. SandForce is simultaneously releasing the firmware to its partners, so if you have non-******** drives you should contact your drive manufacturer for an availability update."


In case you missed it, the important part is that one SSD manufacture (not Corsair) has been testing the new SandForce firmware for three weeks. Now that they think it works, they will release it to their customers, and now SandForce will release the firmware to its partners.

Assuming this is true, Corsair and the other users of the SandForce controllers have only very recently received the new firmware. That quote was from an article dated 10/17/2011. So Corsair has had the firmware for less than a week, perhaps as little as three days.

So is it a bit early to expect Corsair to release this firmware to their customers? Obviously.

The manner in which SandForce and the one company it partnered with to test/verify the firmware, announced it and also provided it to their customers (SandForce to Corsair, etc) is questionable at best and unprofessional to say the least.

SandForce can't guarantee that this update will work on every manufactures implementation of their chip, that hasn't been verified yet. Manufactures often modify firmware for various reasons, what if that interferes with the update? All these SSDs are not identical copies of one reference design, for example they all don't use the same NAND chips. What happens if one or more of the multiple manufactures that are now testing this firmware find an issue that the single manufacture that tested it overlooked?

It seems the popular consensus is the SandForce BSOD issue is fixed, or that is what is being touted by the statements given by SandForce and their partner in this. Which implies all the manufactures using this SandForce chip must cure any BSOD issues they now have. What a nice position for SandForce to put their customers (Corsair, etc) in. Since one company now has their SSD fixed (with a head start at it) what are you doing? It's not if it will be fixed, but simply when.

This also seems like a political maneuver on SandForce's part, they are no longer the problem, they fixed it, and everyone better join the club or be left behind.

Given that a company does not know the outcome of an endeavor, how can they predict when it will be done? Not only predict, but know exactly when it will be successfully done.

We have also yet to see the response of real world users of these SSDs and this firmware.

I truly hope this new firmware does all it is supposed to do, but to assume that it is a done deal on a fixed schedule that can be announced is ignoring reality.
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  #86  
Old 10-20-2011, 04:53 AM
kadok kadok is offline
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Wahoooo

I just post a topic about my brand new ssd:
http://forum.corsair.com/v3/showthread.php?t=100053


I just read this and it surprises me that means my problem is well and that to date there is no solution??

I hope not to be in the category "known issue but we are working on it .."

Good luck to those who have more serious problems.

Sorry for English, I'm french

Thank you to you
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  #87  
Old 10-20-2011, 05:05 AM
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SaintGermain SaintGermain is offline
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I have a big doubt about the date on which Corsair was in possession of the firmware Sandforce. I read that Sandforce has sent the firmware these partners in order of priority, and that Corsair was in 2nd position. If true, the time of making available firmware could easily be explained.
If the firmware is as good as expected, a little patience will not kill us.
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  #88  
Old 10-20-2011, 08:47 AM
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Patience is a pretty word but I believe it doesn't apply: "we" are not Corsair's friends or does it as a company have much interest on "our" feelings.

What binds us is money: the money I paid for the wretched thing and that I'll be paying every next time I head to the store or post a unit for replacement. No RMA tomfoolery for this customer here.

Then there's the money the store is losing every time they send "defective" units around the globe for a problem that, I'm sure, as little to do with the physical item itself. It's not their fault anyway, they were also expecting a properly finished product.

But mainly this is about the money that Sandforce kept by not testing their products before launch. Which must have found it's way into a much more appealing destiny.

What Corsair should understand is that it will become their money too, as I for one will not shop again where my money and satisfaction is not regarded as the utmost priority.

And please don't get me wrong, but if your "internal validation" was worth it's name this situation would never have happened.

Right?
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  #89  
Old 10-20-2011, 10:23 AM
dngrwill dngrwill is offline
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1) Yellowbeard, unfortunatly a lot of this heat is being directed at you, please don't take it personally as I think you are doing the best you can with what you have to work with.
2) That said, Corsair is failing in PR 101. Many case studies have been written on how companies should handle 'bad' announcements since the Tylenol scare of the '80s, and the overwhelming strategy is to be transparent and honest. If you stonewall your customers will crucify you..... This
is very very well documented all over the net (and yes I have an MBA).
3) This is NOT like any other firmware release because Sandforce has said that they have resolved the problem with new firmware, which puts Corsair in a crappy position of announcing dates and setting expectations that could possibly not be met or stonewalling. Again, Business 101 (did I mention I teach business strategy at the college level?) would have Corsair making an announcement immediately. Of course, you could continue to stonewall and your firmware update could still be buggy, which would further damage the companies already shaky response. Again, google it this is BUSINESS 101, and Corsair's deciding not to follow the reccomended strategy makes me think that their management really really REALLY does not know what they are doing nor the damage occuring to Corsair's reputation as days go by....
4) Yellowbeard, I hope you are communicating with detail and frequency to upper management about the 'feelings' on the forum. I do not want you to be 'thrown under the bus' on this by mgt saying "well yellowbeard should have told us how bad the situation was...". I've seen it happen many times.
5) I would ask the Corsair management to look at what happened to IBM when their drives started failing (deathstar) and how much poor press they got and continue to get today. The other recent example is Seagate, they first tried the stonewalling tactic and got huge bad press (to this day you can find people who will not buy Seagate drives after swearig by them). Again, massive damage until they decided to come clean and offer data recovery services for EVERYONE with an effected drive. It is much easier to be proactive on this manner than to wait as by waiting the costs will continue to go up for Corsair.
6) If someone in Corsair's management wants to understand this better, they can freely message me. I have been consulting to technology companies for about 20 years (microsoft, intel, lucent, etc) so I know what I am talking about!!!!!!!
7) Ignore this information at your own peril. It strikes me that every new visitor to the fourm is presented with a large and growing thread that does not case Corsair in a good light.
8) Again business 101 but mad customers create about 100X more damage to a companies reputation than satisfied customers. Would you reccomend this drive to a friend or family member at this point?

Sorry for the length. It is just plain sad to see a company with many good products 'blow up' their reputation because they didn't have a communications plan in place - and yellowbeard, make sure you leave a paper-trail and get sign-off on your messaging so they don't blame you.
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  #90  
Old 10-20-2011, 11:49 AM
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Here's the deal with firmwares and at this time, I see NO signs of this changing. We will NOT be announcing ahead of time that we are releasing a firmware. When it's ready, we'll announce it.

There is no clandestine effort to withhold information and beguile our customers. There's nothing to withhold. Of course we are working with SF to rectify any problems with the SSDs we sell. Rest assured that we will put the proper amount of effort into this for our customers, both current and future.

Hypothetically, what is to be gained if I randomly post something like this once or twice a week?

Quote:
Hey guys, just an update for you. I walked past engineering today and the guy that does internal qual's on the SSDs was at his station doing internal qual's on SSDs. I asked when it would be ready and he said it will be ready when and if it passes qual's. Sooner if you stop pestering me
Answer: There is nothing to be gained. If we did give a date, and then we announced that date and then failed to meet that date for any reason (which is quite likely) then that creates a storm of angry forum traffic, tech support and CS calls and complaints, backlash with retailers, etc etc etc. We have been there and done that and it is not beneficial to anyone.


Also, no other company that deals with firmwares or BIOS updates issues any sort statements about release dates. It's simply too unpredictable due to the process of firmware development, getting them from SF, qualifying them internally, then getting them ready for release.

If anyone can show me a company announcing ahead of time a date for firmware release I'll pass it on internally. But, you won't find any of our competitors or any MOBO maker making these announcements. It's not reasonable to expect it and it's not reasonable for us to try.

What is reasonable is to understand that we ARE in fact always working with our SSD controller suppliers to make our SSDs better. When and if we have firmware updates, we will announce and post them.
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