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  #76  
Old 10-30-2004, 03:15 AM
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herman herman is offline
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You might just try starting over.

AGP = 1.5
CPU = 1.5
MEM = auto or 2.7 (just for starters)

Then try moving AGP to 1.6, CPU to 1.6, and MEM to 2.8. If it doesn't work, just stop and move them back. You are done. Definately don't turn them up any more than that just for the memory.
---------

SiSoftware Sandra for me says:

Core Voltage Rating : 1.500V
Min/Max Core Voltage : 1.500V / 1.550V
*Environment Monitor 1
Model : Winbond W83627(T)HF ISA
Version : 9.00
*Sensors
CPU Temperature : 40.5°C / 104.9°F td
Auto Fan Speed Control : No
CPU Fan Speed : 5273rpm
CPU Voltage : 1.47V
*Warning 235 : Vcore less than rated minimum. Check Vcore setting!

-------------

In sandra the fan speed is total crap, and my vcore isn't *that* much different from yours. The winbond chip is probably not reading it correctly or not being read by the program correctly.

With cpuz it went as as low as 1.45 idle and under load floated 1.472-1.488.

Its possible that this is a real problem / bios stupidity maybe related to some cool and quiet bug. Cool and quiet is supposed to drop to 1.4v at idle for one stage. Do you have cool and quiet on? I don't.
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  #77  
Old 10-30-2004, 03:23 AM
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Here's another good one from end of long thread on MSI's A64 board

Probably has alot more to do with the bios update than the power supply, but neo power is known for too low of 12 volt rail. And he is running a harsh video card.

Most parts are same as mine. Only differnece in my config is:
-Antec 380s PSU, came with Sonata case
-One Raptor 73GB HDD
-BFG nVidia ti4600
-nonpro XL 3200

----------

Well - it is finished.

My problems are 100% solved!!

I have determined that 2 symptoms existed. With my current config, i was getting false starts from a cold boot (about 1 in 4). Over time, i also noticed instability and BSOD's, corruption etc.

Step 1 - this forum - thanks for all the advice

Step 2 - Upgrade power supply. This ELIMINATED my BSOD's although there was minor stuff happening (event viewer with littered dead bodies, certain programs would not run) but i feel this was a result of running at full load with inadequate PSU

Step 3 - Shame on me for not doing it sooner, but upgrading bios to 1.3 solved the false start problem. I dont know how, i can only assume some incompatabilty with a piece of hardware i had with 1.2 was causing the problem.

Step 4 - format and reinstall. I have been working FLAWLESSLY for 3+ days now without 1 crash, false start, or any weirdness whatsover. My system is purring!


I would like to thank all for your reminders and ideas, as this was the longest 2 weeks for me. I have never had a problem with a build like this and i was ONE DAY from RMA'ing the board. I am glad i did not.

Advice to all - 1) purchase an adequate PSU 2) If you have 1.2 bios, dump it!

PS - also, thanks for the reccomendation NOT to install the IDE driver from Nvidia, my CDDrive never really worked right until this latest install and the only difference from the last XP install was that i did NOT install that driver.

Thanks Again!

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AMD Athlon 64 3500+
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(removed) Antec NEO POWER 480 watt (modular PSU)
(added) OCZ Powerstream 520
2x Seagate 200MB HD in Raid 0 (stripe) (on SATA 0 and 1)
Floppy
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EVGA NVIDIA 6800GT 256
BIOS 1.2 (as shipped) BIOS 1.3 - NO Overclocking

Last edited by herman; 10-30-2004 at 04:11 AM.
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  #78  
Old 10-30-2004, 05:17 AM
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Found this on the vcore undervolt issue.

http://forum.msi.com.tw/thread.php?threadid=62806

It talks about 1.456 - 1.488, which is exactly what I am seeing.
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  #79  
Old 10-30-2004, 09:43 AM
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OK... since this is driving me nuts, and because I am currently stuck in support limbo, I broke out the temp probe. It looks like this is partially a temp thing. I will add more to this as I find out.


Setup:

Corsair TwinX 1024 (2x 512) 3200 XL Non-Pro
AMD Athlon 64 3500+ 130nm Retail
MSI K8N Neo2 Platnum - BIOS 1.3

Stock Antec Sonata case with its stock TruePower 380s PSU
Zalman 7000A Cu, using BIOS 40C fan threshold, 3 deg. tolerance
BFG nVidia ti4600 - Original 4X AGP Version
WD Raptor 73GB, LG 52X DVD reader, Sony DVD R/W DL, Floppy

Reset to Safe Defaults
Core Cell: Spread Spectrum - off, Aggressive - on, Rate - 1T
For 2225 - CPU 1.55v (~1.52 real), MEM 2.8v, AGP 1.6
For 2325 - CPU 1.525v (~1.50 real), MEM Auto, AGP Auto
Settings used unless oherwise noted

Fluke 16 with bundled Fluke temp probe
Sticks sitting in 1&2 dual, the ones next to the CPU
Placed probe between the two sticks midway V and H
Effort made to place it where most heat/contact
Room was about 70F - 72F throughout testing.

Memtest86+ 1.27
Changed to test 5 as soon as started
Ran Test 5 continuously unless otherwise noted
Bandwidth: 18113 L1, 4500 L2, 2618 @ 2325, 2698 @ 2225


******** TEST 5 ********

Case Open 2225:
Start.........34C
First Error...46C - 47C (pass 6, 2 errors per pass until 50C)
Max...........53.4C (rising 0.1 C every 7-8 seonds, still rising)
Totals: 25 passes, 170 errors

2325 Case Open:
Start.........39C (sitting bios got mem up 39C, then booted into memtest
Max...........51.2C (rising less than .1 every 10 seonds)
totals: 14 passes, no errors

2325 Case Closed:
Start.........39C
Max...........48.6C (stable, changes 2 deg)
totals: 40 passes, no errors

2225 Case Closed:
Start.........36.7C (sitting bios got mem up 39C, then booted into memtest
First Error...46C - 47C (pass 5, 2 errors per pass until ~49C)
Max...........50.1C (stable, changes 2 deg)
totals: 99 passes, 896 errors


******** TESTS 1-7 ********

Settings:
2325 - 1T, aggressive, SS off, AGP 1.5v , MEM auto, CPU auto
2225 - 1T, aggressive, SS off, AGP 1.5v , MEM auto, CPU auto

Closed Case 2325 with full Tests 1-7 Pass:
Start.........44.6C (pass 1)
Min...........39.2C (near end)
Max...........44.8C (at ~15-20 secs after test 5)
Start.........39.2C (pass 2)
Min...........38.9C (near end)
Max...........44.7C (at ~15-20 secs after test 5)
totals: 2 passes, no errors

Closed Case 2225 with full Tests 1-7 Pass (probe may have moved):
Start.........40.5C (pass 1)
Min...........40.2C (near end)
Max...........45.2C (at ~15-20 secs after test 5, 42.8 just after test 4)
Start.........40.2C (pass 2)
Min...........40.0C (near end)
Max...........45.0C (at ~halfway through test 6, 42.7 just after test 4)
totals: 2 passes, no errors
Start.........40.8C (pass 3)
Min...........40.0C (near end)
Max...........46.0C (at ~halfway through test 6, ??? just after test 4, mised it)
totals: 1 pass, 2 errors (test 5 at 808 MB and 824 MB)

*I think the probe on this last round of 3 passes for 2225 is 0.5 C down from where it should be; bumped the probe accidentally before starting.
--------

I guess everyone could just draw their own conclusions.

Some interesting observations. Notice that 2225 fails at about 46-47 degrees C no matter if using stock voltages, or recommended hard core RAM Guy ones. And even though 2325 it clearly crosses into 50 degrees plus area, it doesn't fail, even with slightly less aggressive voltages. Full test vs. just test 5, doesn't seem to change things either. Also, notice that with the case closed temps are lower. This is for two reasons, 1) I get a little real airflow from the back fan, and 2) once the PSU starts pulling in the hot system air, it cranks its fans and pulls a little more air over the mem too.

Rant time ---

To me it looks like the XL mem is marginal for 2225 at these temps, end of story. The harder its pushed the hotter it gets. The hotter it gets the more it fails. I think 53 C is kind of too hot. I wouldn't expect it to work, and I wouldn't expect it to get that hot, not form Corsair. It's not like I am trying to overclock or anything.

I don't really know why it would be like that, but I'll make a few guesses.

Maybe all the success stories were mostly with XL Pros, which have much bigger heat sinks. Perhaps most people only ran the standard test a few times if they did memtest at all. It could be a testing issue in that nothing they use is pushing it this hard, and as returns come in and go back out we get a unhealthy build up of ones that failed for A64 speeds. Its not like they normally know or trust why newegg returns come back I would imagine. Less than 30 days in customers hands can be sold as new, nearly universal rule. Maybe this mem would always get this hot without pro heat sink or active cooling on a A64, and it is never going to work at over 46C correctly, as in not supposed to. Maybe the MSI layout just sends it over the edge, though it really shouldn't be that fagile, not for $300.

It could be that I'm just nuts and have bad proc, bad MB or both and all this is just crap. I kind of think that since the only thing that seemed cause the failure was module heat at 2225, that this is just classic marginal part heat induced failure. I'll try a Antec True 430 I have before I completely flip out.

Last edited by herman; 10-31-2004 at 11:00 AM. Reason: update
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  #80  
Old 10-30-2004, 01:04 PM
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RG, so am I just scewed?

I feel like the eng validation guy. ;)

I'll try a new PSU and the beta BIOS, though I doubt thats really going to fix the heat thing. If not sure that even if it did work I would want mem that goes to 50C+ in less than 30 secs. My case is only going to get hotter as time goes on, no matter how much I clean it.

And what if it still doesn't work?

Last edited by herman; 10-30-2004 at 01:08 PM.
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  #81  
Old 10-30-2004, 01:41 PM
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I have the XMS XLPRO and i'm not doing any better then you I have not checked the temp of the ram but I'm still not getting 2-2-2-5 stable I'm not sure what exactly to blame I wish I could test this stuff in another pc isolate the problem maybe Ill run up to the local PC shop to see if they can test this stuff on a different MB/CPU I'm still leaning twords the ram or the voltage issue
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  #82  
Old 10-30-2004, 07:19 PM
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Default MSI K8N Neo 2 Platinum

This may shed some light on why people may be having problems with the MSI K8N Neo 2 Platinum & memory and it also applies to the Rev 1.3 BIOS for the board:

Don’t Believe Your BIOS: MSI’s K8N Neo 2 Falsifies its Multipliers:
http://www.sudhian.com/showdocs.cfm?aid=616

Debunking the Myth of the Athlon 64 Half Multiplier:
http://www.sudhian.com/showdocs.cfm?aid=617
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  #83  
Old 10-31-2004, 11:01 AM
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**** Update ****

Short version:

Hit 55C, still climbing, same settings!!!

Was either because different sticks, different slots, or because the probe was more snug between the PTs in 3&4. I vote more snug. Last time it was sort of just hanging in there. Temp on chips is probably 3-5C more.

This is bad.

***************

The mem tested above was the XL PT mem from the RMA. The mem tested in the last post was in slots 1&2 was bought from Fry's on Friday to see if it was any better and is non-platnum XL. It's not overall any better.

I have the platinums only now in 3&4, which seem to fit much more suggly together making better contact for the probe, and am getting readings about 3-4 deg C higher. I actually saw above 55C in test 5 and climbing, with cover off. It could be that the platinums I have get hotter, or a function of slot 3&4. Eitherway, this is scary.

So I actually have two sets now which other than color should be the same. I tried them both at same time (2GB) to see what would happen. The bios calls the "sides" rows on bootup, and with four sticks all 8 "rows" are filled, the evil 4 rows/sides per channel, which causes it to go down to 333 DDR and 2T. The 333 2T vs 400 1T really isn't alot of difference, less than I thought, in that memtest still saw 2338 vs 2698 bandwidth.

Since the burden is shared between the sticks as the test runs through all 2GB of mem, the sicks don't get as hot, which I think mattered more than the lower 333 DDR. As it was running through the test it looked like it was either hitting 1&2 *OR* 3&4 at any given time, which makes sense because I think 1&2 split one half of mem together interleaved and get hit at same time dual, and 3&4 would split the other half. Even if it were that memtest was alternating between sticks in same channel and jumping all over the place, it would still not be pounding the same sticks as rapidly. So we never got the build-up effect on test 5. The did get to about 46.5 or so, but maybe 333 @ 2225 is still too slow to cause failure.

The 166 is 16% slower than 200, but RTC 2 to 3 is about 50% slower for that function, so there is still a good gap in real world time. In other words, there is some gap in real world time at which the sticks just dont work above 46C for RAS to CAS, and I have no real way to know where that is since I can choose 2 or 3, except to change the MHz, saying that doesn't skew the test itself. 2 clocks at 200 MHz would be equal to 3 clocks in real time at 300, which I could never hit. You can also start seeing the theory of how mem made to do 3338 at 500 DDR might function at 2225 at 400 **saying there isn't some other problem** and if there was already lots of wiggle room, which is how this XL mem came in to existance to begin with.

So best case for a 3338 at 250 Mhz, which say for arguments sake was right on the edge of not working at ideal temps, using cheesy simplistic math, would be for 200 MHz a RAS to CAS of 2.4, or 250/200 = 3/2.4. This was not the case, insead the components on the chips for the good ones in the XMS would have had to capable of at least the theoretical 2.5 at 250 Mhz, 250/200 = 2.5/2. Probably better than that actually, up to some environmental spec.

So questions are:

What is the max working temp from Micron for the chips, and for Corsair for the modules?

Some work better than others, so what does Corsair test at? Is this a new thing? What tolerances from other components are required at these temps?

Do you have real engineering validation, which tests more harshly outside what run-of-the-mill older retail boards can provide? Does your eng. re-validate new samples continuosly, or only through realworld QA testing?

-------

Check out this board layout:
ATX style: http://www.msicomputer.com/product/p...del=K8T_Neo2-F
vs
BTX style: http://www.msicomputer.com/product/p...tinum&class=mb

Notice how much more room for placing the slots on the ATX than the quasi BTX layout. Its not a board I would ever buy, but its a realy good example of friendly layout for hot memory.

Notice:
- channels together (sticks same channel not usually hammered at same time)
- gap between channels (even better if you have only two sticks)
- termination between channels (termination is closer on average)
- Downside is longer traces from processor, which I imagine there are wiggles in traces for the first channel to keep them even with the second.
- On the neo2, the nVidia chip is forced to be crammed under the AGP slot and have a really short fan to clear the video card.

Upshot for the neo2 is this that the traces are probably shorter for 1&2 dual, which is why they might want us to use 1&2 first. Unfotunately for our situation this probably won't help at all.

I dont think this chipset fan is any better than the tall heat sinks like on the Asus 754, probabaly worse. My fan already makes horrible noises untill it gets hot, and it never seems to go below 30C, even with 5500+ RPM fan, which is kind of fast for what it is supposed to do. If you look, the surface area is just awful.

Last edited by herman; 10-31-2004 at 12:28 PM.
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  #84  
Old 10-31-2004, 11:44 AM
Zielm Zielm is offline
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Default Another in the lines

I ordered the MSI neo2 + the twinx 3200XL, and been following the development of this (and MANY other forums) threads regarding the compatibility issues with this ram running at "spec" timmings. Like Herman mentioned, I believe "someone" here is understimating the popularity of this mobo+mem combo...

To my "issues" now. I chose my new rig to be built by Monarch PC rather than trying to deal with this machine myself (I've built a lot, but given the realiability of many of the items, specially the memory and board bios, I gladly payed the extra cash for them to "test troughly" everything before shipping it. I Finally got my computer:

AMD64 3500+
MSI Neo2 (socket 939) Bios Rev 1.3
Twinx 3200 XL pro (2x 512MB)
Antec "True 550" PSU

First thing I noticed is they had set 3-6-3-8 on 2T, so I switch it to "specs" 2225 and "force" the ram volt to 2.75. I say "force" because the bios gives ya a red light warning of system inestability if you so chose any voltage above 2.70...Windows installs flawless, all patches, applications, etc. No issues at all on windows environment or "A" game like Everquest (which uses a lot of memory IMO). Then I got a crash trying to enter "Guild Wars" free stress test (about 5min into the logging screen), and their client tells me is either CPU overheating (which I very much doubt), and out of 5 other possibilities all were: "agressive mem timings", memory heat, or mem issues.

I then got suspicious and loaded memtest to check results. Did 2 straight 1 to 7; only test that "owns" me is #4...what does this one means exactly? I see ppl making lot of emphasis on Test 5 and 7, but those I pass at "spec" timing. I would like to get this one sorted out please :)

I would also like to see the answer of MSI to Ram Guy. Fortunately/Unfortunately I have enough time to see these answers, since im expecting my 2nd RMA Geforce 6800. I cant test other "intense" mem games like Farcry or Doom 3, since im running on a crappy Geforce 2 atm. It would suck to see my "Rig" rock solid @ 2225 in windows and apps and fail at intense 3D gaming , lol help? :P

Z

Last edited by Zielm; 10-31-2004 at 11:49 AM.
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  #85  
Old 10-31-2004, 12:41 PM
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Zielm,

Run test 5 like about 10 times and see if it starts blowing. Test 4 is good for finding if there are bad/marginal places in mem itself. Test 5 *running continuously* is good for timing and heat.

Test 4 does get hot, but just not as hot as 5 over and over from my observations. In my oppinion test 4 would be better if it had been placed after test 6, just from watching the temps.

You could just have old school style bad mem.

Try a stick at a time.

Also what slots are you using? What case did you have? What other fans if any?

-------

If it only fails with 4 after all that, then it may be a good sign for us all.

It would propably mean your mem is just bad, and that *if yours gets really hot and pases, or always stays really cool* that maybe there is hope for people like me.

That or ebay and OCZ el2 will be my new best friends.

Anyone know if EL2 is single-sided?

Last edited by herman; 10-31-2004 at 12:55 PM.
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  #86  
Old 10-31-2004, 01:09 PM
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FYI, if it's 512 MB or higher, most (if not all) mem manufacturers make them DS.

Man, I'm gonna have to re-read this thread when I get home, so much info! :)
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  #87  
Old 10-31-2004, 01:27 PM
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Check out this review:
http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=2128

Shows some memory on neo2 doing 222-10 1T @400, both 2 slots and filling in all 4 slots at 400. I can't though find the sizes they used. Anyone else see them? They also overclocked the hell out of it. Editors choice. The memory is not corsair.

Time to stop being down on my board.

Last edited by herman; 10-31-2004 at 01:31 PM.
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  #88  
Old 10-31-2004, 02:57 PM
Zielm Zielm is offline
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Default Don't panic, I'm back with the results! :p

Like you said Herman, "Don't blame the board" hehe. Here are my results for your suggested tests and here are my "variables".

Variables:

Bios
-Spectral Spectrum off (worthless)
-Voltage on "auto" mode (if its tilting red on the options, I just don't like it)
-Timming 2225 @1T
-Cool n' Quiet Enable

Hardware
-AMD 64 3500+ (130nm)
-Case is Antec AMG1000 Plus View (huge, soho file server type).
-6 Fans working. 1 Intake on side, 1 Intake on middle Front (helps the HDD temps ), 2 exhaust on the rear (case default), 2 default exhaust by PSU.
-Cable mangement Aok!
-Shin Etsu Thermal compund (applied at monarch)

Living in the tropics and not having an air conditioner in my room (where my PC is located) means my ambient temps is usually 30c (86F). I use multiple system temp monitors (Bios, Ntune, Mobo monitor app, etc).With this said, here are systems temps:

Temps:

Iddle: Mobo= 34c to 36c CPU= 40c to 41c

Load (meaning playing 3D app like Everquest): Mobo= 38c CPU= 54c (max on said game).

side note:Air flow proved to be very efficient today. Suddenly it rained, and case temp droped accordingly.

Now to memtest:

Only ran test 5 this time. After 20min of testing (thats about 21 times), NO errors at all on this test. I did notice that my mobo temp was at max when I loaded windows and checked Ntune utility. Like Herman said, this test sure puts some heat to the system. With my current airflow, it took about 10min running windows for temperatures to hit normal.

So again...Im new to memtesting, what's the deal with failing test 4 (like 8 errors first run, then a few more on 2nd, I believe it escalates from there on) and owning all others?

Z
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  #89  
Old 10-31-2004, 03:34 PM
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Your probelm seems different than mine.

This is all just educated guessing, but this is what I think:

If I correlate our two results, either my mem is not supposed to get this hot, or should work fine this hot. Yours sounds like it is doing one of the two and passing. Hard to tell since you cant measure yours.

For you, you probably have bad mem, i.e. bad bits or things that r/w the bits on the sticks. It's failing on some fancy bit combos, test 4, pretty quickly. The fact that it passes test 5, which is more about streaming and timing, I would think that the CPU and board are fine. It could always be the CPU or board though too.

Watch the places that fail. If they are usually about the same spot, especially if they are the same spots, then it is more likely the mem than anything.

------

Did you try a stick at a time?

Also if you are doing dual and see it is failing at like 640 MB consistantly and then swap the sticks in the slots, and it starts failing at like 642 MB instead, then that is probably one of the sticks, where the error is following the stick.

Definately test them both individually in one of the green slots.
You might have to run more passes to get them to fail as they will be cooler individually. Cooler often helps lots of things.

Last edited by herman; 10-31-2004 at 03:41 PM.
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  #90  
Old 10-31-2004, 03:53 PM
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OK, I've now tried both the 1.37 bios and a new power supply.

I had neo2 bios 1.3 before. This time I used an Antec TruePower 430, same exact kind as in the anandtech k8n Neo2 review I posted here earlier. The other one was an Antec TruePower 380s, that came with my new Antec Sonata case. Both are later model TruePower PSUs, as they have extrenal power on the back, sata connectors, and all the connectors are black. Rails were at 12.03, 5.07, 3.382 under load while runnning test 5.


Tried new bios, then tried slots 1&2 again, then tried all voltages up, and then down, then tried PSU with PSU sitting on floor. :)

It got up to 55C again during these tests.

All still fail basically the same way.

-------

I'm going to do prime95 now, in-place and blend. I can't close the case because I have a power supply hanging out of it.

Right now as I type the mem temp is 37.6C, using 2325. Sky is clear. No sign rain. :)

Last edited by herman; 10-31-2004 at 04:01 PM.
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