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  #16  
Old 07-09-2017, 09:21 AM
red-ray red-ray is offline
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Thumbs down The PWM clock should be 25 KHz but the CLCP PWM clock seems to be about 0.36 KHz

I have just measured the PWM clock and it seems to be about 0.36 KHz rather than the target of 25 KHz as specified in the specification. Has anyone seen the same please?

I just checked a CLCC and that's about 18.2 KHz, still out of spec, but far closer. To me it's starting to look like Corsair have messed up and I wonder if this is the root cause the fan detection issues.

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Attached Images
File Type: png CLCP PWM Clock is 0.36 KHz.png (252.2 KB, 471 views)
File Type: png PWM Output Signal should be about 25 KHz.png (24.5 KB, 813 views)
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File Type: pdf 4_wire_pwm_spec.pdf (114.9 KB, 99 views)
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  #17  
Old 07-09-2017, 12:20 PM
SpeedyV SpeedyV is offline
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Default Ut oh!

Quote:
Originally Posted by red-ray View Post
I have just measured the PWM clock and it seems to be about 0.36 KHz rather than the target of 25 KHz as specified in the specification. Has anyone seen the same please?

I just checked a CLCC and that's about 18.2 KHz, still out of spec, but far closer. To me it's starting to look like Corsair have messed up and I wonder if this is the root cause the fan detection issues.
Oh I have a bad feeling about this, and am wondering if this indicates a hardware design flaw that cannot be corrected through a firmware update. If you post details on where you attached a scope probe to observe the PWM Clock, I am happy to try same and see if I get the same results. I can also check my Commander Mini. I don't have an O-Scope sitting here but can borrow one from work.

I also wonder if there is more than 1 PWM method and specification. When I did some Googling of the matter, I pulled up an article that discussed variations in method and implementation of PWM control (will look for link). I recall thinking it odd and unlikely that variations in PWM control implementation could result in incompatibilities. There are lots of companies making PWM fans, PWM controllers, and motherboards with integral PWM control, yet I have never read of compatibility problems like PWM fan brand X will NOT work with PWM fan headers on motherboard brand Y. Then again, I have not searched for evidence of incompatible PWM methods as I never had a reason to.

If what you are observing is correct (and I am confident that it is), then the next step would be independent confirmation of results. Assuming the results are confirmed, then was does it mean?
  1. Did Corsair screw up hardware design and the problem cannot be corrected through a software or firmware update?
  2. If the PWM Clock frequency is that far off, would it cause the issues that are surfacing?
  3. Are we looking at a hardware recall solution that Corsair would deny and fight tooth & nail to avoid?

I am happy to confirm your measurements if you provide the information required to do so. To be honest, I expected bugs and problems with the CLCP when I purchased it, but I was not expecting an issue like this. Corsair seems to have exceeded my expectations again!
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  #18  
Old 07-09-2017, 01:03 PM
red-ray red-ray is offline
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Oops Corsair seem to have failed to impelement the Specification

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Originally Posted by SpeedyV View Post
I am happy to confirm your measurements if you provide the information required to do so. To be honest, I expected bugs and problems with the CLCP when I purchased it, but I was not expecting an issue like this. Corsair seems to have exceeded my expectations again!
What you will need to do will depend on the scope you use, but you need to connect the probe to pin-4 with pin-1 being the ground. I used my trusty old Tektronix 465B with DM44 and this was quite easy once I read the manual. I was quite surprised what these still cost as they must be over 30 years old.

I also suspect if you set 50% PWM and connected a frequency counter it would also report the clock. The main thing is for someone to confirm my readings.
  1. I don't know if this can be fixed by a firmware update, but can't be fixed with a software change.
  2. It could do, basically as the clock is way outside the specification all bets are off and Corsair need to fix this.
  3. Yes, I suspect they will and it will be interesting to see what happens.

Last edited by red-ray; 07-09-2017 at 02:24 PM.
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  #19  
Old 07-09-2017, 03:41 PM
SpeedyV SpeedyV is offline
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Originally Posted by red-ray View Post
What you will need to do will depend on the scope you use, but you need to connect the probe to pin-4 with pin-1 being the ground. I used my trusty old Tektronix 465B with DM44 and this was quite easy once I read the manual. I was quite surprised what these still cost as they must be over 30 years old.

I also suspect if you set 50% PWM and connected a frequency counter it would also report the clock. The main thing is for someone to confirm my readings.
  1. I don't know if this can be fixed by a firmware update, but can't be fixed with a software change.
  2. It could do, basically as the clock is way outside the specification all bets are off and Corsair need to fix this.
  3. Yes, I suspect they will and it will be interesting to see what happens.
Ok I will check and see what they have. I think it is a dual-trace digital storage scope that is way more sophisticated than what is required to check this. We also have some older scopes in the bone yard that I could grab. I assume by pins 4 and 1 (ground) you are referring to a fan port on the CLCP.

I will try to borrow a scope tomorrow and do the test tomorrow evening. I will check the Commander Mini as well. I am guessing that these PWM controllers use off the shelf chips to drive the fan ports. I am tempted to open up the CLCP and have a look. If I can identify the chip and look up the specs for it, it may be possible to confirm that they are operating the device (way) out of spec.

This is rudimentary Electronics-101 design stuff. I wonder who Corsair contracted to actually design the hardware portion of this product. Based on what you have observed, I am a bit surprised it works at all. Stand by for independent test results.
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  #20  
Old 07-10-2017, 05:49 AM
red-ray red-ray is offline
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Idea The CLCP uses a Cypress CY8C3246AXI-138

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedyV View Post
I am tempted to open up the CLCP and have a look.
I expect the PWM clocks come from the CY8C3246AXI-138 so expect the speed can be corrected with a firmware update.

Quote:
  1. So was I and the CLCP uses Cypress CY8C3246AXI-138 for all the control functions and there is also a Genesyslogic GL852G 4-port USB HUB.
  2. The top cover is a clip fit which I managed to remove without causing any damage.
  3. I used a small screwdriver, pushed to top end cover next to the LED inwards and it then released.
Attached Images
File Type: png CLCP with top removed.png (440.2 KB, 471 views)
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File Type: pdf CY8C32 Family Data Sheet.pdf (2.98 MB, 69 views)
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  #21  
Old 07-10-2017, 07:14 PM
SpeedyV SpeedyV is offline
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Originally Posted by SpeedyV View Post
Ok I will check and see what they have.
Update - What they have is a Vector Scope so I may have to do a little digging. I am sure there is an O-Scope around here somewhere...
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  #22  
Old 07-12-2017, 04:45 PM
spielberg spielberg is offline
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Default Corsair LINK 4.8.0.82 & Firmware 0.2.136 for CLCP fixing issues with Noctua

After update my Problems with Noctua Industrial PWM not Spinning up are fixed.

Everything running fine for me now.
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  #23  
Old 07-12-2017, 06:56 PM
SpeedyV SpeedyV is offline
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Default Thanks for posting this.

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Originally Posted by spielberg View Post
After update my Problems with Noctua Industrial PWM not Spinning up are fixed.

Everything running fine for me now.
Hey you are right! They did release an update but only though the Link application. Their download site still has 4.7.0.77. There is also a firmware update for the Commander Pro - New version 02.136. I wonder what they changed? Will be checking fan detection and hot plug for sure.
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  #24  
Old 07-12-2017, 07:10 PM
red-ray red-ray is offline
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Thumbs down hotplug does not work

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Originally Posted by SpeedyV View Post
Will be checking fan detection and hot plug for sure.
Fan detection seems to be better, but hotplug does not work .

The number of LEDs is also still limited to 72 and 6 strips.
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  #25  
Old 07-12-2017, 11:06 PM
SpeedyV SpeedyV is offline
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Default Pre/Post Firmware Update Strangeness in Fan Speeds

I did the CLCP firmware update to version 0.2.136 over a TV link. When I got in front of the machine, my fans were oscillating between ~800RPM and ~1000RPM - all of them. All but 1 is tied to coolant temp. Per the curve I have they should have been sitting at ~1000RPM steady. SIV showed the RPM oscillating back and forth about once every 2 seconds.

When I did the Link and Firmware update, I saw a pop up that said a reboot was required, but it didn't do one and neither did I . So after seeing this weird fan behavior, I did a full reboot. Now I am seeing the fans all go from ~1000RPM to 0 RPM and then back again several times in the last few minutes. Coolant temp is steady at 40C. I am still running SIV 5.21 Beta 13 at the moment.

Since the reboot, it does not oscillate between ~800RPM and 1000RPM - all fans are dropping to 0RPM for 2 seconds or so, then going back to 1000RPM (where they should be). This behavior (fans all going to 0RPM for a few seconds) has happened 2 times before the firmware update that I have been sitting here to see. Tonight, after the CLCP firmware update, it is doing it often.

Now, while typing this, it seems to have stopped. I guess I will keep an eye on it. If I can catch a screen capture of [AIO Link Fans] showing 0RPM for fans tied to coolant temp of 40C, I will. This may have nothing to do with the firmware update, especially since I have seen this happen twice before.
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  #26  
Old 07-13-2017, 12:57 AM
Vihsadas Vihsadas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red-ray View Post
Fan detection seems to be better, but hotplug does not work .

The number of LEDs is also still limited to 72 and 6 strips.
I'm finding the same thing. Hotplug is not working. Also, my EK Vardar F2-140s are still not being detected correctly. They are still being detected as 3-pin voltage.

So no real change for me.

Corsair. Just let us set the fan port mode manually. seriously.
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  #27  
Old 07-13-2017, 02:56 AM
red-ray red-ray is offline
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Confused The CLCP 0.2.136 firmware has a 17.9 KHz PWM clock

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedyV View Post
Update - What they have is a Vector Scope so I may have to do a little digging. I am sure there is an O-Scope around here somewhere...
Any luck with finding one?


Quote:
Originally Posted by red-ray View Post
I have just measured the PWM clock and it seems to be about 0.36 KHz rather than the target of 25 KHz as specified in the specification. Has anyone seen the same please?

I just checked a CLCC and that's about 18.2 KHz, still out of spec, but far closer. To me it's starting to look like Corsair have messed up and I wonder if this is the root cause the fan detection issues.
I have just checked and the CLCP 0.2.136 firmware has a 17.9 KHz PWM clock, so I suspect the 0.36 KHz clock was at least part of the issue.

Corsair, why does the CLCP use 17.9 KHz when the specification specifies 25.0 KHz?

Corsair, please will you publically comment on why hotplug is still not supported?


Quote:
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File Type: png CLCP 0.2.136.PWM Clock is 17.9 KHz.png (369.9 KB, 426 views)
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  #28  
Old 07-13-2017, 04:09 PM
SpeedyV SpeedyV is offline
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Originally Posted by red-ray View Post
Any luck with finding one?
Sadly, no. I can't believe we don't have a scope laying around my company, which prides itself on designing and building extremely complex AV and control systems. A Vector Scope - REALLY?!?


Quote:
Originally Posted by red-ray View Post
I have just checked and the CLCP 0.2.136 firmware has a 17.9 KHz PWM clock, so I suspect the 0.36 KHz clock was at least part of the issue.

Corsair, why does the CLCP use 17.9 KHz when the specification specifies 25.0 KHz?
Well that's better. Now that I have updated by CLCP firmware, even if I get my hands on an O-Scope, I will not be able to verify your original readings. I am still trying to borrow one. If I am successful, I will certainly check the PWM clock with the new firmware running.
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  #29  
Old 07-13-2017, 04:28 PM
red-ray red-ray is offline
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Idea Obviously they should!

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Originally Posted by Vihsadas View Post
Corsair. Just let us set the fan port mode manually. seriously.
Obviously they should! I just don't get why they don't .

Are all your devices 4-pin PWM? If so and you post the SIV [Link Fans] panel I will PM you on how to get SIV 5.21 Beta-21 or latest to set them all to 4-pin PWN. It's quite easy.

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  #30  
Old 07-13-2017, 05:13 PM
SpeedyV SpeedyV is offline
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Originally Posted by red-ray View Post
Obviously they should! I just don't get why they don't .

Are all your devices 4-pin PWM? If so and you post the SIV [Link Fans] panel I will PM you on how to get SIV 5.21 Beta-21 or latest to set them all to 4-pin PWN. It's quite easy.
Hi Ray,

Don't mean to butt in but I am interested in this new feature as well.

I installed SIV 5.21 Beta 21 and I get part of that new pop up you show but not all of it and it is grayed out. All my fans are PWM and I would like to force the mode just to be sure. Am I missing something?


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